The Fall of a Tyrant


The writing is on the wall for the Imperium, her allies are falling away or fail-cascading, their corpses harvested for parts. Like a nonchalant Nero, The Mittani’s harp sings songs that al-Sahhaf would have been proud of, bending over so far backwards with his mental propaganda gymnastics that the backflips are practically spinning. The reality is that Rome is burning: apart from the clear issue with allies within the self-modelled empire, a multi-front war erodes their sovereign territories as line members begin to question the sanity of their leaders.

“For years we exemplified the power of N+1, being the single, most unified and most capable entity for bringing maximum numbers of any ship to a fight.”

It’s too early and in poor taste to perform a eulogy for the dying, but alliances are hard to kill in EVE, they always have the option to convalesce in lowsec and make a resurgence at a later date. Capsuleers are immortal, after all, a fact used to great effect by Goonswarm Federation over the years reminiscent of the Romanian offensives at Stalingrad, only to much greater effect, as fallen comrades merely reshipped and got back into the fight. Us Goons pioneered a utilitarian approach to the game, eschewing the assumed attachments most players form to their characters, their ships, their implants, their stuff for something far more pragmatic. We capitalised on a great underdog story to undermine Band of Brothers and came out on top as a galactic power. For years we exemplified the power of N+1, being the single, most unified and most capable entity for bringing maximum numbers of any ship to a fight.

Core to the success of the bees was our ideology. The very foundation was our origins, being children of Much like a student fraternity, members of SA establish a preferential relationship in which our allies are put before all others. This relationship served as both a strong backbone unifying all EVE Goons and as a ripe recruiting ground for warm bodies to fill the ranks, but the rhetoric of ‘best friends, worst enemies’ went much further than that. Contempt for those not of the hive knew no limits: when Goons go to war, it is a total war, taking no prisoners and obeying no rules of honor or good conduct. Furthermore, early bees really jumped on the underdog bandwagon, deliberately embracing the notion that we were the worst players of EVE. This cognitive trap served to black-hole failure as ‘what else did you expect’ while simultaneously portraying those who failed against them as ‘worse than the worst’.

Goonswarm are probably best characterised as performance artists, though. With our great numbers came the potential for much talent, manifested in grand pieces of propaganda. We have never been quiet on that front, seemingly always seeking an audience as we go about our ways. Who can fault us? From Suas’ singing to the bee iconography to the state propaganda broadcast tower that is and the many streamers associated with it, Goonswarm has always been loud, proud, and playing to an audience. We haven’t been shy from playing the bad guys either, fully embracing the dark intentions for New Eden with scamming, ganking, spying, and every underhanded tactic in the book, and profiting from our lack of restraint in victory and spoils.

“Goonswarm is full of interesting and capable people, and has a core demographic that will survive whatever will come in one form or another.”

Behind our many successes is also a robust set of services: forums, voice comms, software, and of course organised, mostly unpaid volunteers running them. Our SIG program – special interests groups that span the whole alliance, regardless of corp or alliance membership – has enabled expertise to be pulled together across the whole coalition into cohesive, effective units. We have even pioneered incredibly progressive groups, looking out for LGBWTFBBQ interests and forming ‘Swoleswarm’, a group dedicated to working out and physical health. “The best for our people” is not an empty phrase; Goonswarm is full of interesting and capable people, and has a core demographic that will survive whatever will come in one form or another.

World War Bee

So where did it all go so wrong? First, let’s start with the misattribution of success. Many organisations, professional or otherwise, claim to be meritocracies, but typical human biases often serve to subvert this intent. Interviewers are said to hire people most like themselves, while the importance of networking is huge, with many roles filled by reference rather than advertisement. Big risk takers are merely more volatile and no more successful, on average, than more conservative people, and yet risk takers are perceived to be more successful and selected for. Even in the most well-meaning environments, the intent of an organisation can be eroded and undermined. However, EVE is a hostile environment where trust is a major factor. This can give rise to rampant cronyism when loyalty is allowed to trump ability. Like anyone who’s had a bad boss will know, advancement can come from being in the right place at the right time and being willing to throw others under the bus while taking credit for their actions. Yes-men springboard into their positions based on aptitude for political maneuvering rather than qualification for their job. Cronyism can be exacerbated when your organisation is taught to celebrate a Stalin-esque ‘perform or be shot’ approach to work, where payment is given in the form of honour and glory. When cronyism becomes rampant, organisations tend to crumble when tested, as endemic lack of aptitude causes the whole apparatus to fail, compounded by a detachment from reality as underlings fear conveying the truth.

“EVE is not like real life in which a Machiavellian prince can quietly weed out detractors and shoot them in the back of the head.”

Some of the core Goon attitudes have turned out to be a two-edged sword as well. The idea of ‘best friends, worst enemies’ can work, for a while, but EVE is not like real life in which a Machiavellian prince can quietly weed out detractors and shoot them in the back of the head. Even players forced from the game can sit on the sidelines in r/eve and snipe at their tormentors, perpetually out of their reach, while the severe repercussions for betrayal lead to a list of enemies that only grows over time. Coupled with a willingness to do anything, Goons cemented their position as the bad guys of the universe, but by doing so created an automatic hostility that was eventually leveraged to turn the greater part of New Eden against them, rallying those with little to no direct experience against the swarm by reputation alone. That isn’t to say that we have been incapable of making allies, whether out of convenience or mutual self-interest, but recent events have shown these associations to be two-faced and harmed the potential for any future peaceful relations between us and our neighbours. At best, we garnered ourselves some fairweather friends that are abandoning us as things actually get tough.

The swarm itself also has become complacent. Fattened on previous successes, we have been coasting on a big wallet and lack of significant opposition for quite some time now. Attempts to engage in distributed warfare rather than all-out blobbing, as necessitated by the changes to sovereignty mechanics, have tended to slide back towards old habits; everyone wants to pile in on the biggest, most entertaining fleet. The military has ossified, continuing the perpetuation of the auteur FC model of battle command and failing to generate innovative new commanders. This in part has been due to the lack of challenge; having ‘won’ EVE for a time resulted in a lack of worthwhile or willing opponents. More able FCs have retired, to be dusted off in times of need, hopefully still relevant in their thinking. The current war may be dire, but with the imminent capital changes, adapting to new mechanics while turning around a losing war may be too much to ask.

“The cloak and dagger mystery of a spymaster and his web of intrigue all starts to feel like smoke and mirrors, lacking in substance. The smoke-filled backroom where all the secret deals happen turned out to be a cheap motel with a fog machine.”

The worst failures remain internal, however. Monetisation of hobbies isn’t the most glorious of pursuits, but it is one best done above-board, transparently, and with a soft touch to not ruin things with exploitation. Done poorly, it comes across as crass and exploitative and, sooner or later, alienates those associated with and most responsible for the actual success. A soured relationship with and a growing list of “true Goons” who’ve fallen from the swarm hint at a seething unhealthiness within the GSF and our growing discontent with the current leadership. It is becoming more and more obvious that their position at the head of the swarm is in part maintained by a reluctance to challenge the status quo and ultimately at the barrel of a gun, the attitude of ‘for the good of all Goons’ twisted into an excuse to cement power. Furthermore, the hyperbolic propaganda meant to antagonize their enemies and galvanize Goons to success also whitewashes failure and suppresses dissent, while the continued narrative suggests excessive sipping on their own kool-aid. The cloak and dagger mystery of a spymaster and his web of intrigue all starts to feel like smoke and mirrors, lacking in substance. The smoke-filled backroom where all the secret deals happen turned out to be a cheap motel with a fog machine. The spin machine is so overutilized that all points of reference are lost and every event is retconned as an intentional step in a greater plan, resulting in smugness as their supposed goals are achieved. Thinking ‘we’re so meta, we’re playing the game at a level nobody else is’ is a sign of your head being in the clouds and a long throw from being the supposed worst at EVE. The leadership also seems to have lost all sense of the extent of its power, repeatedly trying and failing to exert influence over the silliest things, like the name of a war already cemented in the public lexicon. “Don’t worry, it’s all a plan to distract from some other thing” will be the inevitable next step in a delusional narrative doomed to convince nobody but its creators.

The delusions continue to manifest in ill attempts to declare war on CCP by boycotting the CSM, an awkward attempt to place a much-reviled individual onto the CSM as a troll, tilting at the windmills of r/eve, and apparent email exchanges in which they antagonise and try to play individuals within CCP against each other. The abject failure of trying to coax Goons wholesale into H1Z1 coupled with the contemptuous idea that abandoning EVE for other games is an acceptable alternative to their failed attempts to blackmail CCP indicates a very strong detachment from reality. Not to mention the undisclosed terms of that H1Z1 arrangement: likely a huge sell-out with questionable beneficiaries. The attempted lateral transfer into being a ‘real business’ is laudable, but the execution is both exploitative and dire, as if its executives are dogged by the kind of thinking that only really works when managing a virtual evil empire. One of the better lessons they could have learnt is transparency, like Goonswarm achieved in the past having opted to make its alliance ledgers public. However, when real money is concerned, the tune changed.

“…an NDA agreement which expected unpaid volunteers to expose themselves to prosecution for, amongst other things, discussing ‘vital business information'”

Within TMC’s editorial circle, the opportunity of real money pay and shares in the ‘business’ has been teased for years now, a mirage never materializing but serving as a useful carrot to keep hopefuls dancing like puppets. Editors burned themselves out to keep a sinking ship afloat, burdened by the same cronyism; a microcosm of the Imperium’s greater corruption. Eventually the carrot was replaced with a stick: an NDA agreement which expected unpaid volunteers to expose themselves to prosecution for, amongst other things, discussing ‘vital business information’, such as how many space credits, steam wallet funds, or other gaming currencies were paid to staff. This was no casual NDA either: a kangaroo court jumped at the opportunity to label yours truly as in breach of contract for discussing how much TMC writers and editors are paid. Unfortunately for them, their willingness to threaten legal prosecution over such a laughable matter backfired when it became clear that the NDA had not been distributed to everyone and signed by all parties, which then resulted in the audacious request to sign the NDA so that proceedings could continue. This is not how professionals do business. While the TMC shareholder smokescreen joke is quick to be deployed and any serious antagonism is shrugged off as grr Goons, a lack of transparency and willingness to be transparent casts serious doubts.


There’s no way you can paint so many people with a single brush. Even if our leadership’s failings are largely a result of stupidity rather than malice, part of the mantle of leadership is taking responsibility for the direction their actions have taken them. But when there is malice, it must be cut out from within, whether by excising the cancerous elements, or by burning everything to the ground in order to remake and renew from the ashes. Culpability for such malice can only rest at the very top.

A lot of Goon rhetoric is based on the principle of fellow goodwill, of looking out for each other. When a viper enters the nest and starts exploiting fellow Goons for their own good, it’s known as ‘Goonfucking’ and considered a capital and unforgivable offense; the absolute worst thing you can do within our totalitarian ideology. As long as the façade is maintained, any and all actions can be brushed off as in the service of the swarm, but if you start to doubt and cast events in an uglier light, things take a bitter turn. The worst violation is one not often discussed out of respect for those who have passed, and easily glossed over with benefit of the doubt and a desire to celebrate the positive and remember the best, but in a quid pro quo to our attitude of no line uncrossed, any of you may ask yourself this question: when does a respectful memorial turn into political exploitation in service of a virtual tyranny?

The Mittani insults the greater EVE community with his contemptuous attitude to the game, its creators, even geek culture itself. He insults his audience, his employees, and his partners with his toy-empire approach to business and pseudo-intellectual thinking and rhetoric. He has lead his people to ridicule and ruin, but most importantly, he has violated one of their own cardinal rules with his own narcissism and self-interest. Like the ignoble artificial intelligence from the Iain M. Banks novels, GCU Grey Area, which broke one of the few taboos the Culture had, the most scathing judgement comes from his peers. It could be exemplified in a single word and apt title when we ask ourselves: is The Mittani a Goonfucker?

Tags: Danikov, goons, goonswarm, The Imperium, The Mittani, World War Bee

About the author


Like all great EVE players, Danikov lives in Scotland, where he enjoys deep-fried food and the world's best whiskys. Despite being an eclectic player of games, EVE has been his one and only MMO ever since late 2011.

  • Montolio Was Right

    This article tells too much truth, be ready for Mittens to label you mentally ill and put you out the door.

    • Joseph Blade

      didn’t take too long for half of that to occur.

  • Kreza

    Great article, loved the Culture references too – if only we could play in that universe. Hypothetical question, if they decided to (and I don’t think they will) what would GSF have to do in order to appease MBC at this point?

    • lol

      Apologize to every alliance they’ve messed with, not looking for good fights but just to “ruin their game”. Then they can pay back IWI.

    • Random no-longer-CFC Grunt

      Speaking as an ex-goon – I want either of the two options:
      1. The entirety of the Illuminati expelled from GSF. Every single one of them. Starting with Mittani, ending with the IT admins (yeeees, you too Kilgarth), reimbursement, logistics directors. Everyone! Then – GSF starting anew. The probablility of this happening is about the same though as a person winning a lottery 10 times in a row.
      2. GSF getting as close to getting disbanded as possible, i.e. losing like 99% of active members, someone going karttoon on them, robbing them of everything and then the alliance itself effectively dying.
      None of these options seem realistic but both would satisfy me personally as a now-MBC member.

    • Bill Bones

      As Auric Goldfinger would say:

      “Do you expect me to talk?” “No, Mr. Goons. I expect you to die!”

      • Dirk MacGirk

        these kids, they don’t know Goldfinger. Just Goldmember. But that was the best Bond movie

    • The Culture reference is indeed interesting. As much as the Grey Area was reviled, it was still called upon to do what others wouldn’t.

      And is there a Chairmaker somewhere out there in New Eden?

    • Sanders Schmittlaub

      Add Martini eating a bag of candy dicks on stream to whatever appeasement others want.

    • callduron

      Regime change is clearly the only solution.

  • GrouchyOldGamer

    I’ve no doubt a lot of the bile that’s being spewed from TMC is entirely due to the simple fact that fewer warm bodies in the CFC the less chance there is to monetise them.

    I donate money to eve streamers, artists and authors – I won’t give a cent to anything TMC promotes because I’m not funding anyone who wants to exploit a game I love and its players.

  • Kurbanis Araeleus

    Well formulated arguments and some saliant points.

  • TheTruthSeeker

    This is probably the nail…

  • G

    ~10,058~ lost votes. A direct result of his personal poor behaviour at Fanfest.
    He screwed over every. single. person. who put their faith in him that day, whether fellow Goon, ~valued Allies~ or politically engaged EVE player.

    Every decision since has been made for his personal benefit rather than the good of the swarm, or the game, whether that benefit be for money, power or fame.

    Worker Bees Can Leave
    Even Drones Can Fly Away
    The Queen Is Their Slave

  • rixxjavix

    We become so used to “the way things are” that we often just accept them as facts that will never change. This mentality is a dangerous one because it is a lie that we tell ourselves that only perpetuates the problem and tacitly supports it. We are all, as players, part of the problem in that we’ve allowed this environment of hate, anger, corruption (the list is long) to go on for far too long.

    And now we are all, as players, part of the solution. As we always have been. New Eden woke up and dusted the sleep from its eyes and realized that it didn’t have to live with this any longer. This is not a War as much as it is a movement. An uprising. A revolution in thinking.

    Viva la revolucion!

    • Niden

      Rixx, do you remember when we talked about this jokingly a year ago? It’s time to say “I told you so.” 🙂

      • rixxjavix

        Indeed I do. I’ve been doing my part behind the scenes since then to try and make sure it happened. I take no credit, but it has certainly been a personal goal a long time in coming.

    • GiDiYi

      Bees should not be afraid of their benevolent leaders. Benevolent leaders should be afraid of their bees. Ideas are bulletproof!

    • James

      We are all bad people for not funding the goon book, so says Sion

  • EL

    I hope you don’t burn for this. As much as I grrr Goons, I would like to see them go back to what they were. Like Providence they brought a unique flavour to the game and this flavour is currently going “off”. Badly.

    • Joe

      I actually am not grr goons. I figure they will remain an important part of the game and I am happy for that. I would imagine most line-members just tolerated the mittani as long as he was “winning eve”.

      Now that he catastrophically screwed up the biggest war in eve history I find it hard to believe goons will want him at the helm anymore. Like the author says, he is clearly out of touch with the game and its players.

      Hopefully they will insist on new leadership and be back to playing eve for fun and laughs instead of wringing their hands over the stream of nickels that come from tmc.

    • Montolio was right

      It’s funny. When they came into the game their charge against everyone else was that they were “taking the game too seriously”.

      Fast forward to now…!!!!

      • Within360

        This was never supposed to happen. Mittens was never supposed to be head EVEO Goon. Leadership, yes. Spymaster, yes.
        But there was a vacuum and space nerds got their space Stalin. Not all at once, but over time.
        Recent events do make you question a lot. Is this the game Vile Rat would have played?

  • Digby

    When hot-air is used to propel object into the sky, you can expect the object to gain greater speed on return back to ground surface. And quoting one awesome dude, “It’s not the fall that kills you; it’s the sudden stop at the end.”

  • Bill

    He tried to monetize a culture, and a following, that he didn’t build himself. He put his desire to monetize it above the interests of the following he was trying to monetize. If that isn’t fucking them, it’s a pretty good imitation of it.

    The only question is how they’ll respond to being fucked.

  • mofo_d D

    Great article! 10/10. So well written… well presented and fluid with an absolute accurate take on the subject. Bravo to you sir…. Bravo.

  • Truly great article. But for its intended audience, as Morpheus said to Neo: “You take the blue pill, the story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes”. I would hope if I was in their position I would take the red pill

    • As an odd tangent, I believe that both pills would have woken him up, as both ‘choices’ can be interpreted as different ways of describing what happened next. One of the narrative themes running in The Matrix was the idea that the idea of true ‘free’ choice itself was an illusion, all we can do is understand our choices.

  • vladv

    great article!


    You nailed it. I could not stop reading cause it was speaky truth to not only the game side of this fight; but to the RL side of this fight. Goons have stop being goons a long time ago. In some aspect it is really sad.

    • lawful insanity

      Weren’t you the guy feeding mittani his drinks at that faithful fanfest?

      • G

        He supplied the drink, but all Mittens had to say was “No thanks”.
        Now if DNS wrote the powerpoint and supplied the Wizards hat…

        • Xolve

          The wizard hat had more to do with tracking titans getting nerfed than the coincidental name of the person he was harassing.

          I don’t have a whole lot of positive things to say about Mittens, but at least nail him to the cross appropriate for his wrongdoings.

          • GrouchyOldGamer

            If some random person had posted that miners mail on reddit people would have laughed at it all day long.

          • Xolve


        • G

          Honestly thought the Wizards hat was related to the character name and the presentation. How was it related to the Tracking Titan nerf?

  • Viince_Snetterton

    Never have I been so happy to be so wrong. goons eradicated from null I could not fathom, in any form, under any conditions.

    But naturally, the failed lawyer did it in his typical fashion. Instead of fighting, he preserved trillions in ISK and assets that can be liquidated for personal gain, or to fund in-game terrorism. if the lead sociopath decides that he can’t wait this out in low sec, and then rise again to reclaim his RMT streams, he will most like set out to not to destroy OUR game, but destroy THE game. I can certainly envision not so much a Hellwar against these various low sec Allies, but one against every high sec casual player with the purpose of driving them from the game, and trying to bring CCP to its knees.

  • Messiah Complex

    This is sedition. And it’s beautiful.

    I owe you an apology, Dan. As I was reading this, I went back — twice — to make sure I had read the byline correctly.

  • Zappity

    Easily the best WWB article I have read – very well written with a strong, accurate conclusion.

  • Gale Kautsuo

    I joined Goons (specifically Karmafleet) in the doldrums between Phoebe and Fozzie Sov, wanting to give null a try (I also had a friend in it, who is still in it to this day). I think my disillusionment started when they announced the H1Z1 BS. It felt forced. Yes, they needed to give their playerbase something to do during that time, but H1Z1 was DayZ with a different coat of paint on it (seriously, it even had the Battle Royale mode too). Zombie games were a dime a dozen then.

    I did go out with a couple of fleets, and then my interest died off. One found nothing at all, the other got welped by BL. I know part of why my interest declined is I’m a wormholer at heart and null wasn’t my thing (something I know now). Big fleet battles in TiDi aren’t fun to me. I like roaming a chain, hoping to find a sweet target in a small gang.

    I think most of the other disillusionment came from the forced activity standard, or one paplink per month or else you’re booted. Goonwaffe wasn’t held to this standard, but Karmafleet was. That, combined with my general dislike of large, TiDi’d fleet battles, ended up with me both getting kicked from GSF and letting my sub lapse.

    Ah well. I’m back in Bob’s sweet embrace now anyway.

    • Dysc

      Honestly, EVE is starting to feel like it did when I started in 2005 – opportunities abound and no true set narrative. There were super powers but not as all consuming, and content spoon/force feeding like it has been for the past couple of years. The correlation of lost subs probably has a lot to do with more current player organizations than the game itself (another narrative that everyone took for granted – that eve is bad, CCP losing subs). Once some of these walls are torn down there will be opportunity to grow. Like a forrest fire, some old majestic trees may burn to the ground but the rot and disease it hid is also cleansed and leaves room for young saplings and species to grow. Maybe we’ll see 50k average users again as players actually become vested in their endevours and bring in their friends and get older players to return.

    • Arrendis

      That’s actually not an alliance-level requirement. The alliance makes no activity requirements of individual members, only overall activity of the corporations. So while it’s technically true that Waffe members aren’t held to the ‘one pap per month’ requirement of Karmafleet, that’s Karmafleet establishing that rule, not GSF.

      At the same time, the big fights aren’t for everyone. I lived in w-space for a number of years myself, they’re very different experiences. Personally, I don’t enjoy most small fights. There’s no real challenge in them for me. Keeping a dozen, two dozen guys alive… it’s ‘eh’. It’s a thing. Working to safeguard an entire fleet, while keeping three or four dozen logi properly positioned as three or more enemy fleets maneuver around us… that’s where it gets fun for me. Anything less than that… I start to feel like there isn’t really anything to do.

      • Knobber

        Of all the Goon taboos mittens broke over the years, for example renting, why has GEWNS never been subject to the pap link requirements like all the member corps are? As someone who was once in a member corp it always appeared to me that GEWNS was the top tier in the pyramid, which contradicted somewhat the idea that everyone in Goons, let alone the CFC was equal.

        • Arrendis

          Couldn’t say for sure, but if I had to kick around a theoretical? Because if you’re going to establish performance-based metrics, you need a baseline, an absolute ‘oh my god, this is really pathetic, don’t be this bad’. There’s two ways to do that. Either you go ahead and use an absolute, inflexible measurment (ie: a hard number, like ‘average of 10 paps/month’), or you establish a particular group as that baseline. By using a group known to be active – but very, very lazy – you ensure that anyone actually failing to meet even those minimal requirements is seriously slacking off. You’re harnessing the power of sloth.

          At the same time, an organization as large as the CFC/Imperium – or even one with the kind of sprawling holdings and infrastructure as GSF – is going to have a lot of overhead. Often, that’s going come in the form of holding-alts whose job is basically ‘own this’ or ‘sit in that’, and who need to be able to be used at a moment’s notice. They have to go somewhere. Putting them in the executor corp is one answer, but that a)identifies them, and b)exposes you to the risk of having more people with access to the executor corp. So instead, you put them in your ‘baseline’ corp. This allows for all of those holding-alts that are almost never used – but still needed – to help establish that baseline and still not be in the executor corp

          Again, that’s just my opinion on the rationale, based on the things I’ve gleaned in conversations over the years, but it fits. I mean, there’s a reason we call it a ‘suckmetric’ score. Nobody’s ever said ‘GEWNS don’t click paps because they’re awesome’, it’s ‘don’t suck as bad as we do’.

          • Chief Gumbo Speaker

            So, do as we say, not as we do. Got it. Working well?

          • Arrendis

            Sure, if you want to oversimplify it into an inherently biased and derogatory soundbite. And yeah, generally, establishing a baseline and then giving everyone the ability to see the numbers does work pretty well.

          • Chief Gumbo Speaker

            You clearly set a low bar for “working well”.

  • clapclapclap

    This man can WRITE. I don’t care what side you’re on in our little pixelated universe. Give it up for some masterful writing.

    Hats off, sir.

  • DaFooz Lady

    Very well written and thought out. It says volumes when a two word phrase ‘Grrr Goons’ can rally so many to an internet space ship war. IWI might’ve started the snowball rolling with their funds getting thrown into a fight against SMA, but at this point I find it hard to believe the pressure on Imperium/CFC Sov is solely based on ISK payments flashing in Wallets.

  • Darius JOHNSON

    The article was thought provoking right up until you summon the ghost of vilerat. Low rent, a bitch move and frankly not your place. I’d give you the “we” context when talking about “Goons” given what the thing has become but that’s pretty fucking classless.

    • Montolio was right

      It’s classless, it’s offensive, it’s outrageous etc etc etc.

      But… it untrue?

      • Darius JOHNSON

        There’s two people who can answer that question and one of them isn’t here to do so. You can either soar with the eagles or wallow in the mud with the pigs. Not both.

        • Joe

          What do you think the author can’t see? That his article contains propaganda?

          Not all propaganda is bad or false. Some of it is true and good.

          Sadly given Mittani’s numerous actions to exploit people IRL for eve fame (suicide, manifest, IWI) its hard to pretend to be shocked when someone suggests he is doing that yet again.

          But I obviously hope that is not the case. Do you know if mittani asked VR’s family if they wanted him forever remembered for playing the role of vile rat in eve?

          If they did then great I hope the memorials stay up forever.

          • Darius JOHNSON

            Exactly what I said he didn’t see. That he’s making statements insinuating he understands the propaganda machine while at the same time feeding the machine ammunition to refute his statements or at least distract. The invocation of VR implies that he doesn’t understand as much as he’s stating he does and reduces his authority on the subject.

            Mittani has been and remains a friend of the family not that it’s any of your or anyone else’s fucking business.

          • Joe

            It was hard to follow what you were saying in your earlier post.

            I assume from what you said (although you didn’t actually say it) the family expressed they are happy that VR is remembered in this way. If that assumption is correct then great I hope it all stays up.

            If you want to act shocked that I, or anyone, would question the mittani’s motives that’s fine. If you think that means we are wallowing with pigs instead of soaring with eagles that’s also fine.

          • Darius JOHNSON

            It’s none of your fucking business what VR’s family thinks. That is what I said and I didn’t beat around the bush about it. I wasn’t asking for your permission to have an opinion.

          • Darius JOHNSON

            I’m not trying to be a creep and I hate to do this but I’m going to anyway and maybe share a perspective that helps speak to this as it’s something people don’t seem to understand.

            You have two little girls and a man as your avatar that I’m assuming are you (the man not the two little girls or all three as a single entity). I’d hazard a guess that you wouldn’t find it respectful after your passing for legions of internet losers to be debating the sincerity of any tributes to you years after the fact because they are mad about what your friend said about a videogame.

            They put his face on fucking bumper stickers for fuck’s sake. Remember the man and stop using him as a fucking wedge/tool. That would be being respectful. He is not a part of anyone’s grudge against mittani and if your argument is that it’s fair because you believe Mittani’s doing that then my point is that you’re just as big of a piece of shit as you’re implying he is.

            I’m presuming making that point is fine 🙂

          • Joe

            I don’t find what you say creepy. It’s fine.

            Maybe because our life experiences are different we look at this differently. There is a certain presumption that someone wouldn’t exploit someone in real life in order to gain eve fame. Mittani rebutted that presumption.

            As for my family, I know exactly how they would react. My family has had to deal with tragic deaths and exploitation of those deaths more than once.

            Would they care if some third party dared questioned the sincerity of a tribute? That would entirely depend on how they viewed the person putting up the tribute. It would not automatically be found to be insulting to question the motives of someone just because they put up a tribute to me. Families who suffer a tragedy are not struck dumb. They still have eyes and see what is happening around them.

            Of course, mittani would more likely put up pictures making fun of the way I died as put up any tribute anyway. And you defend that behavior. Perhaps you do not realize how that would make a family feel. Because I can tell you in no uncertain terms that would be upsetting to them.

            In any event. I meant no disrespect to the family of VR. I always thought highly of him in game, (I was not close to him or a friend but gained an appreciation of him based on what he wrote when he ran for csm) and think even more of him for his service to the U.S. and the world. And if any insult was taken I am truly sorry. Moreover, if Mittani knows that the family is happy with the tributes then I hope he keeps them up forever despite shitposters like me.

          • Darius JOHNSON

            “you defend that behavior” – How? Because if you’re referring to Smoske you don’t know the facts or how I fit into that picture. I don’t recall defending ANY of Mittani’s behavior. Quite the contrary when I feel it’s warranted, but I can concede fault if I’m forgetting something. I have a notoriously bad memory from years of hard living.

            I was VR’s friend. Judgement of a person’s character is irrelevant in my opinion when referring to a third party. Mittani was also VR’s friend and as such who the fuck am I to lay claim to how he chooses to honor him? Which is my point.

            I didn’t complain about people lighting cynos or ANY other tribute to VR. I thought they were touching and the families appreciated it. What I’m saying is that it’s four years on and trotting him out as a set piece in a stupid fucking eve war is a sack of shit thing to do.

            I believe having been close to him that means something. I certainly think it should carry more weight than how some rando on the internet involved in a videogame who didn’t know the man thinks.

          • Joe

            As far as you “defending” people who were making fun of the man who died in a auto accident:


            “I don’t give a shit who dies or how they died and neither do you so just stop. Two guys made fun of a guy and dumbfucks like you are literally the only people concern trolling on the subject.”

            Maybe not defending them but clearly indifferent about their making fun of how he died. Your recent concern for respect for the dead which now apparently extends to not only the dead, but anyone who offers a tribute to the dead is out of place.

            I can only say if anyone made fun of the way my family members (who died tragically) passed, I would be upset as would others in my family.

            As far as defending mittani, well it’s more that you try to deflect the blame to Sion. I can’t be arsed to listen to the whole podcast again and be specific. But by the end I thought you liked mittani (perhaps because he bought some sort of toy for your kid or something I forgot) and didn’t want to believe that he was actually in charge of how goons are being run.

          • Darius JOHNSON

            Christ. I never claimed to care. I don’t care if you think I care. Perhaps I’m being some form of fucking thought pedant but there’s no “maybe” about anything. I’m not defending them and you said I was. You were wrong.

            I never claimed to have respect for the dead. I claimed to have respect for my dead friend. Saying that this is tribute is, well, also wrong. Categorically.

            Mittani’s been a friend for a decade. I’m going to sound like I’m friends with someone I’ve been friends with for a decade. So what? What does that have to do with anything?

          • ZuZuMan

            You’re the one sperging the fuck in here first acting all self-righteous, and now getting defensive because your hypocritical statement got thrown in your face.

            It’s ok that you acted out of emotion, nothing wrong with that, but don’t pretend you are some sort of self-righteous saint on a humble crusade against those who dare mention Vile Rat, even when they make a good point.

          • Darius JOHNSON

            Firstly I never claimed not to be a hypocrite. As a matter of fact I admitted so. That doesn’t negate my point.

            I don’t mind people mentioning VR. Again, not something I said.

            What IS classless is using him as a tool in a space war, which is exactly what’s happening here. By a guy who barely knows Mittani, isn’t a goon and as far as I know didn’t know VR at all, though they may have crossed paths at some point after I left.

            There is no good point. There is the insinuation of something that is categorically false and I am very much in a position to know that. You aren’t and neither is Danikov. If you’re going to call someone out be accurate. It’s not like the words aren’t all right here.

          • SciLaw

            That’s damn rich. “Ethics” coming from the people who claim that there’s no ethics in gaming, friends with a person who told his gang to harass a depressed person so that he would commit suicide. You hang out with scum so STFU.

          • Darius JOHNSON

            Sure are a lot of dumb fucks like you telling me what I believe. For the record I supported his ban and thought he deserved it but go on telling me about myself random internet zilch it is an interesting tale you weave

    • Goon

      You gonna come back and coup Mittens? GSF could use an actual Goon at the head.

      • Joe

        I think Darius likes Mittani too much. He wants to blame everything on Sion.

        • CommunistAnimeTroon

          I think he’d rather chew bricks than play this horrible game again and who can blame him

        • Darius JOHNSON

          I blame whomever is responsible for whatever I’m blaming them for at the time like any other non idiot.

          • Joe

            Unless the person to blame is your friend mittens.

            It’s clear to everyone but you that the buck stops at Mittani.

          • Darius JOHNSON

            ok thanks for letting me know

        • Chief Gumbo Speaker

          It’s not hard to blame Sion, if you have ever had to deal with him. He has a way of turning friends into enemies. Mittens is more about demonizing those he feels have turned on him. Both are shit-eaters.

      • Darius JOHNSON


        • GrouchyOldGamer

          Do you think anyone will take your ‘best alliance panel presentation’ title this year champ?

          • Darius JOHNSON


    • I’m going to respond to what I feel is the most important element to your comments: yes, I went there, and it was with great trepidation and hesitation. My fellow staff left the decision with me and I went with it. In part I felt it was appropriate because I feel that nobody is above reproach or questioning. Also, when confronted with people who challenge us, we goons seem to seek out the softest spot to strike back at people (as you seem to have done with me), often with great disregard for the full consequences of those actions. By embodying that, I have highlighted the cost of doing so.

      We remember every year, we have to endure the subject coming up in the context of politics, or even film. Even if we weren’t directly involved, we are all connected to it by our community, our empathy, our ability to project and share the losses we all suffer. I spent a good part of my article setting up the importance of that community and I did my very best to approach the sore subject as tenderly as possible, given the question I was asking.

      • GrouchyOldGamer

        I enjoyed your article very much, however, given you apparently made a choice to mention VR was he you friend?

        Every year I attend a memorial for people I’ve never met as part of a community I’d be rather upset if I though someone were using their deaths to make a point over something so mundane.

        It was a poor choice on your part IMHO

      • Darius JOHNSON

        Look dude, even if I take the perspective that your opinion is wrong I can’t take it away from you. My criticism was stated somewhat in anger because he was my friend and 4 years later I’m tired of seeing people consistently use him as a tool in their space arguments.

        Do you feel it was right? I’m sure you did or you wouldn’t have written it. You also feel nobody is beyond reproach and guess what? Here’s your reproach! SURPRISE!

        I’m not “seeking out a soft spot” to make you hurt. I said flat out the article was thought provoking and there may be a lot I agree with. I can’t get past the blind rage I feel at your invocation of my friend however. I could have just said that.

        What I chose to do instead was tell you there was some value while pointing out that by bringing up VR you are defeating your own purpose and I will explain why.

        When you write an article you are at your most basic attempting to articulate a subject to an audience. In doing so you expect them to have some agreement with you or at least to consider your point of view. My point was that the audience who will agree that you are within your right to use VR’s name in that way already agrees with you and has already said that themselves.

        The people you are TRYING to reach are the people who aren’t already converts and those people will be turned off for the reasons I highlighted. Those people are different from folks like me who are likely not your audience and also actually angry that you are dredging this up rather than simply turned off by it.

        So yeah, I get that you feel you were right to do it. I just think it was a shithead move and if you don’t like it that’s your purview but I’m going to call you a shitbag for it.

        • strovolos avaleiria

          My pennies worth, i agree with darius to a point: he could have written this article whithout questioning vr and the friendship between him and the mittani and it would have still been a great article. questioning a relationship between two persons where one is dead is below the belt. as darius said there are two ppl who know the truth and one is saidly gone to play eve in whalhalla. unless other concrete evidence surface leth the legend rest in peace

      • Darius JOHNSON

        I will also point out that having been friends with VR and Mittani for around a decade AND knowing his wife who is also friends with Mittani he wasn’t being exploitative. He cared very much for and continues to care about and miss VR. Who the fuck are you to say otherwise?

        In case you’re still thinking about the answer I’ll help – “nobody”. You have no authority or standing to speak on the matter. You have no context. You do not know the people involved well enough to make the assertions you are making. In short you are wrong and frankly that was a really fucking stupid thing to write.

        Whether it appears he profited or not you don’t get to decide his motivation and I am a FAR better judge of that. As that judge I find you guilty of being wrong and also a shithead.

        But hey what the fuck do I know compared to a random pubbie who labels himself “Goon” on the internet?

  • sunbird

    GJ dude!

  • Skir Skor

    Not so much Grr Goons, more like Lol Goons these days.

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  • Rolfski

    This article seems to me give a good insight in how a culture can change for the worse over times. Although I’m not a Goon, I can definitely imagining some spot-on analysis going on there. I can even follow the argumentation for this analysis to be a legit reason to freshen up Goonswarm leadership.

    What I have more problems with though is implying the Mittani being a Goonfucker and the deceased Vilerat be exploited for own agenda’s, without providing substantial proof or argumentation. These are serious allegations that need to have ground before making them and I’m not seeing it in this otherwise thought-provoking and generally well-written article.

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  • dsfasdfsf

    “Early bees really jumped on the underdog bandwagon, deliberately embracing the notion that we were the worst players of EVE.”

    Being bad at Eve doesn’t make you the underdog, fighting outnumbered does.

    Years ago, early bees manage to dogpile 10k goons onto 150 IRC, and still managed to lose. They didn’t lose because the 10k of them were underdogs, they whelped themselves because they had no coordination, came through 1 fleet at a time, died 1 fleet at a time, and basically fed the enemy kills for 8 hours.

    Actually, it’s kinda like how CO2 jumped all their Machs into the fire, while goons and “greater goons” sat back and watched while CO2 extracted via pod express. Clearly CO2 were traitors for not “denying content.”

  • Levarris Hawk

    Hell yes Mittens is a Goonfucker.

  • Rob Kaichin
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