Snakes In The Grass

 

Some time ago I wrote a short guide on spying in EVE Online for a friend’s blog. It was quite popular (and still is) and so I decided to revisit that theme for my column here. Of course it would be pointless to repeat what I wrote there. Furthermore, my function at Crossing Zebras is to write about the metagame. Correspondingly this article is intended as a discussion of the playstyle and its ramifications, not as a guide.

The Path Of Shadows

Next to alliance or coalition leadership and politics, spying is the ultimate form of metagaming. It requires discipline, patience, self control and good acting. The most important skill of any spy is the ability to hide behind a facade, an assumed identity, and conduct operations without the knowledge of their targets.

This playstyle takes its toll on the psyche. Living a double life within the often tightly knit social circles of EVE with the intent to destroy or at least maliciously mislead those around you is not an easy thing to do for a long time. Hiding the traces of your activities is also not a simple feat in an environment where many are constantly watching for signs of treachery. Consequently spies often burn out or make mistakes that end their career.

“Spying used to be my main activity in game but it became too tedious. Now it’s about a 75/25 split w/ 25% being spy and intel stuff.”
– Anonymous burnt out informer

It is almost impossible for a spy to present the fruits of their efforts publicly. They may influence the outcome of a war or even facilitate the failcascade of an entire alliance, but if they do not retire after such an achievement, if they want to keep working as a spy, they will not be able to brag about it. In the end, only them and their employers will know what they did. If their contacts and handlers are doing their thing well, they will not be talking about a spy’s activities either. Even after retirement it can be risky to talk about past achievements. People in EVE can hold grudges for a long time, and some of those are serious enough to spill over into real-life. Exposed spies sometimes have to deal with actual real-life harassment. More on that later.

There is one aspect that sets spying apart from many other ways to play EVE: it favours newbies and women. There is no in-game skill requirement for a spy. Certainly, a prospective agent needs social skills and a keen mind, but it does not matter which ships they can fly. Some spying roles require participation in corporations or subgroups which demand particular skills, but there is no skillpoint requirement per-se. Indeed, people who appear harmless and inexperienced often have an easier time because nobody perceives them as a threat.

Women have an extra perk when it comes to infiltration. Because they are so rare in EVE, they are like a precious commodity and will often be welcomed with open arms.

“In the past I used my wife’s voice on coms to infiltrate wormhole corps for two reasons. 1, to provide targets for my PVP gang and 2, to gain access to SMA’s so that I could eject ships and bump them out. If they didn’t give my wife some kind of fuel roles after a few weeks in the corp.”
– Longinus Spear, wormhole podcaster.

One famous spy – T3mp3s7, I will come back to her later – was interviewed on that subject for the podcast Voices from the Void. Unfortunately that recording is lost because the podcast page was taken down by the owner, but T3mp3s7 talked at length about how easy it is for women to enter a corp and cause drama. [1]

“The girlcard definitely works on people in EVE […] As a female spy you don’t even deny it. You are a spy and you are just being yourself.”
– T3mp3s7 on Podside podcast.

Even if a woman were suspected of being a spy, there would be people who jump to her defense. The back-and-forth of accusations and white-knighting can cause even more dissent among the ranks. Whole pacts have broken apart over a girl in the past.

If you want to take any advice away from this article, then let it be that you should always watch any woman in your ranks closely if you are worried about spies.[2] Also watch everyone who gets close to her – they might turn into white knights later.

uYPGEmv

Agents Of Mayhem

“The exciting spy stuff only happens to people gunning for corp theft, or people who get lucky.”
– Anonymous cynical spy

Some are not in the spy game for the long haul. Their goal is to cause as much destruction as possible in a short time and run off with the spoils.

Awoxers, griefers, corp thieves – back when I was still working in the field I used to love those guys. They cause drama and internal denunciations which can seriously destabilize the social cohesion of a corp or even an alliance. A skillful manipulator can leverage this to create a full crisis. The damage to corp assets caused by such betrayal is sometimes only an afterthought from the perspective of an embedded spy. The best effect it can have is to divert attention away from the subtle operator who quietly weaves a web of intrigue and misinformation while supplying information to the enemy.

The metagame of the malicious infiltrator relies on laxity of security and background checking. Targets are often either gullible, too keen on growing quickly or they simply do not care enough. The aspiring backstabber usually employs some subtlety, but wouldn’t go too far out of their way. There are often other targets to choose from if one proves to be too wary.

“I sold a few characters and decided to buy a new one to use as a spy (people are dumber than you would think). I got into a few of the -A- allies left in the south after the HBC formed. Robbed them as they geared up to leave and jumped to the next.”
– DirtyAddict, professional corp thief

“Found a great little carebear corp and was welcomed with open arms. I played the returning noob, who had some knowledge of the game from a previous trial some years ago…(covers any slipups I may have given of experience).”
– Anonymous infiltrator

Players like that are often in it for the tears as much as the money or killmails. They are the spying equivalent of suicide gankers. They choose a suitable target, infiltrate it and then pull off their heist in a hit and run fashion. One doesn’t make friends that way, but it is an activity which holds less risk of creating a permanent grudge. Sometimes one surprisingly does make friends.

“I actually contacted one of the folks from the corp after and took him on some low sec roams. He is the only person that made me feel some compassion for the group. Got him some kills and had a good time.”
– Anonymous infiltrator

Going for that style of betrayal also puts way less long-term strain on the mind by having to operate in secrecy for months. It also provides a release at the end. Usually, one can not repeat the same feat with the same character, so bragging about it on the forums is possible. There is nothing left to lose and just some more tears and claps to gain from the community.

Spooks And Spiders

The majority of spies who are embedded long-term within an organisation will be alts of someone who flies with the enemy. That carries its own risk of course. Many alliances can trace their members through forums, mumble, the EVE API and other means. Alt spies often get exposed that way by savvy counter-intelligence operatives.

True career spies are a rare breed and they often do not hold out for long. If you read my other article on the subject, you will encounter that long list of prerequisites for the successful spy and the many methods to protect a covert operation. Of course I only scratch the surface on the latter. Like stage magicians, spies will never tell you all their tricks. No other style of playing in EVE is shrouded in more secrecy. Even campaign plans for major wars are protected less than intelligence operations. The factors I name result in a high entry threshold for the field of spying. Most of those who progress further than just simple theft and betrayal do so on a slow path of development. If I use my own story as reference: it was mostly a series of opportunities and lucky breaks during which I slowly refined my methods.

Long term success can be achieved by forming an organisation specialized in spying or intel gathering. EVESkunk and EVEIntelcorp are two such organisations. The latter does counter-intelligence and security auditing as well as infiltration. They do contract work much like mercenaries do.

“EVE Intel Corp is completely open to anyone who pays. I started out just doing history and activity reports on individuals and have expanded to more corp sized projects. Testing security, war dec planning / war dec defense and finding thieves and spies. I try to take on any request as long as it is interesting.
– Shadow Broker, founder of EveIntelCorp

EVESkunk is – or at least was – an example of a full-on spy ring. I have only a vague idea how it formed, and I used to think that a player called Mister Black was the founder. Later it turned out that Mr. Black is actually a woman with the character name T3mp3s7. She started paying EVE as a teenager, got involved with spying, and ended up being a partner in the group behind EVESkunk. During a presentation at EVE Vegas 2012 she outed herself. The result was major drama which resulted in the dissolution of the original EVESkunk crew.

To the outside, EVESkunk leaked information from alliances which individual spies had gathered through API keys. They also encouraged everyone else to submit more API keys through their website. On the inside it was a shadowy network of spies and agents most of whom did not know who the others were.

The solo spies are definitely also out there, but if you are not one of their customers, it is unlikely that you hear anything from them or about them. They are like ghosts in EVE if they do their thing well. Like myself, many of them will try to find a permanent employer who pays them a regular salary. That creates its own challenge: how does one build a trust relationship with a customer when one’s speciality is deception? Those who are like lucky like me, have a real-life friend in an alliance they want to work for. Otherwise it can be quite difficult. In my previous piece I offer a few suggestions on how to do that.

The Psychological Effect

I have mentioned before that the spy game can be psychologically and emotionally demanding. Many will find ways to project negative feelings onto their targets to deal with betraying them or  working against their interests from the inside. Long-term embedded spies are also constantly exposed to the fallout of their actions. It can be particularly hard if an innocent gets blamed for what a spy has done. The hatred that some direct at such a person can be shocking to observe. A spy has to put it out of their mind what would happen if they were exposed themselves. Actually they will have to encourage the witch-hunt. Nothing is better for a hidden agent than a target who think they just got rid of a spy and feel safe.

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I mentioned that a negative attitude towards the target can function as a coping mechanism, but working inside an organisation one dislikes is not the easiest thing either. I once infiltrated a nullbear corp of TEST Alliance and I thought it work would out well because I had a serious aversion against that organisation. I had to give up in the end because I seriously couldn’t deal with their culture for too long. Ironically, despite horrible counter-intelligence, they had an indirect form of protection against someone like me.

It can happen over time that spies lose themselves in the manipulations and mindgames they are playing. It becomes a way of life in-game and even when logged off. The further they go, the deeper they can become immersed and it becomes almost impossible to see anything else. Everything is viewed in terms of possible ways to exploit a weakness or manipulate someone. Personally, I even began to try and convince people I knew in real-life to work for me as agents.

In the end there were two things which wrenched me out of that reality tunnel. One was a dear friend who no longer plays EVE. I tried to convince her to work for me because her then CEO had just started an association with a major nullsec bloc and I saw a great possibility to get in there. She did not only fend off my attempts,.She actively challenged my playstyle while never attacking me personally, and she did so persistently.

The other thing was the fallout around T3mp3s7’s coming-out. There is an old podside episode [3] where she is talking about the aftermath of her presentation on spying. Because of harassment she was forced to change her phone number and take down her facebook profile. That story of a fellow spy horrified me. I had kept a low profile, but I certainly did not want to be stalked and harassed in real-life if I were ever exposed.

In conclusion I would still say that the spy metagame is an exciting and complex field. I do not regret having participated in it. Despite being unable to brag about what you do, it can become your own secret pleasure. While others stress themselves about their corp or alliance, their killboard stats or their reputation, you spin your intrigues in the background and slowly spread poison through the ranks. Nothing in any other game even remotely compares to that experience. Even writing about it now conjures up that feeling and makes me smile.

To sum it all up, let me paraphrase a quote from Petyr Baelish – a character in Game of Thrones:

Spying is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb. They refuse, they cling to their alliance or their e-honour or in-game buddies. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

 

[1] If you have a recording of that episode, maybe you can link it. It was Episode 62 IIRC.

[2] This is not meant to say that every woman is a spy and none of them can be trusted. If they are spies, though, they tend to be the most dangerous and disruptive ones you could have in your corp.

[3] The part where T3mp3s7 talks about the harassment she had to deal with begins at 40 minutes. Also note what she tells about CCPs reaction.

Partial Image credits go to Andreas von Cotta, concept artist for CCP and others.

Special thanks to all the anonymous and not-so-anonymous individuals who have helped me writing this piece.

Tags: intel, spying, tarek, theft

About the author

Tarek Raimo

Former nullsec spy (no not under that name of course) and current failure at lowsec solo PVP, Tarek spends his time not logging in to the game as much as he keeps thinking about its social and metagame nature and sharing some of those thoughts with the CZ readers.


  • Erotica 1

    Good article. I have done some of my own spying to hilarious endings in the past. If anyone’s interested in the craft, CODEdot welcomes you with open arms. There are lots of bad corps in highsec, and we would like to improve them all…

  • Jason612

    ok. but why the name crossing zebras ?

    • me

      how about hopping bunny or swinging rexataurorus?

    • xanderphoena

      When myself and Jeg started CZ, we were looking for a .com url. We are both from Zebra Corp and were looking for a tenuous connection. What are called crosswalks in the USA are known as zebra crossings in the UK. Crossing Zebras is a nice play on words flipping around a well known UK phrase as well as implying coming up against Zebra Corp.

  • Justin Thomas

    The whole “woman” thing doesn’t work with me. I play EVE Online because it’s a nearly exclusive male space. I love the competition and true cooperation that goes on in exclusively male spaces. I don’t like women in my games, and I avoid corporations and groups that have women in them, as the presence of women tends to be polarizing and a massive source of drama.

    • Kamar Raimo

      How quaint that there are still guys like that around. 😛

      • Justin Thomas

        Men need masculine spaces the same way women need their “safe spaces”. A behavior unique to women, however, is that they will invade a male space, while proclaiming it’s their “equal right” to do so – and then demand that space change so that they feel “safe” and “not discriminated against”.

        Take for example female gamers who are constantly up on a soap box about how female gamers are “harassed”, and how online gaming is a “hostile environment” for them – all because someone said something mean to them. In case no one else was paying attention: men say terrible things to other men in the gaming community. It’s part of the culture. But when it happens to a woman, well, it’s time to change the culture.

        EVE Online is a masculine space. Women are underrepresented as far as online games and MMOs are concerned. And I’m damn glad, because it means I haven’t had to go out of my way to avoid women in EVE. In case you haven’t noticed, EVE Online isn’t exactly a PC environment – and I love it for that. Maybe it’s the technical nature of the game (y’know, maths and sciences and stuff) that keeps women out, maybe it’s because the UI isn’t pink and there’s no elves… but whatever the reason, I hope CCP never changes that one vital component of the game.

        • Kamar Raimo

          I guess the crucial difference between simply being mean to other gamers and the thing that female gamers are complaining about is the fact that they are being treated differently because of their gender. That being said, I also find the way people treat each other online quite horrible sometimes.

          I also wouldn’t say that EVE is a masculine space per-se. It was never stated as a goal to be for men only. It’s not the Freemasons or a Gentleman’s club 😉

          Too bad that you feel so irritated by female presence. I can not say I have the same problem.

          • Carrie

            What Justin isn’t smart enough to have figured out yet is that most of the female players in EVE use male identities. I know I do; I know my daughters do. No more extremely explicit raep threats, no more very personal questions about lady bits, no more “anything bad”.

            I only wish the real world would let women use the cloak of “fake man” to protect us from gender-based b.s. while walking down the sidewalk.

          • Kamar Raimo

            I know whar you mean. Not personally of ourse since I am a man, but because I have a female gamer friend and exchanged a lot of experiences with her. She did the same for a long time. Funny enough she found a group in EVE where she felt she can be a woman openly.

          • Merry Christmas Mr Cricket

            It’s actually preferable that you “use a male identity” – that means you’re NOT TeamSpeak with the rest of the corp/alliance – no one knows you’re a woman (and because you don’t use comms, you probably don’t get into any serious groups), so you therefore cannot cause drama and nonsense with your mere presence. So kudos to you. Keep being a “fake man”. Thank you.

          • “no one knows you’re a woman, so you therefore cannot cause drama and nonsense with your mere presence”

            See? There’s further evidence supporting my point (and negating any men’s point) that women are the cause of the problem — no — it’s the MEN who have make the problem out of it. Your statement alone shows that it isn’t the females *making* a problem; it’s the so-called men *making* a problem where none should exist. Women are present, it’s just that since we’re cloaking ourselves for safety measures, the trouble-makers and drama-bringers never learn that we’re there.

            Jeesus, you people and your safe spaces. Yet you won’t let women have any!

          • Merry Christmas Mr Cricket

            This article literally mentions a woman who talks about how easy it is to infiltrate organizations in EVE and cause drama and mayhem *because she’s a woman*. But yeah go play victim because people still buy into that.

          • SHE didn’t cause the mayhem and drama though… the quivering little safe-space snowflakes-who-don’t-like-vag caused the drama and the mayhem, etc.

            It isn’t women here playing the victim — it’s women BEING a victim. If anyone’s PLAYING victim here, it’s da menz who play dogpile on the feeemale when or if they think they’ve spotted one.

          • Merry Christmas Mr Cricket

            You’re so triggered you forgot how to read:

            “One famous spy – T3mp3s7, I will come back to her later – was interviewed on that subject for the podcast Voices from the Void. Unfortunately that recording is lost because the podcast page was taken down by the owner, but T3mp3s7 talked at length about how easy it is for women to enter a corp and cause drama. [1]

            “The girlcard definitely works on people in EVE […] As a female spy you don’t even deny it. You are a spy and you are just being yourself.”
            – T3mp3s7 on Podside podcast.

            Even if a woman were suspected of being a spy, there would be people who jump to her defense. The back-and-forth of accusations and white-knighting can cause even more dissent among the ranks. Whole pacts have broken apart over a girl in the past.”

          • Why or even how could *I* be triggered when each new blurb you regurgitate at me further cements MY POINT that it is, was, and apparently always will be MEN/BOYS who seem unable to control themselves when a[n alleged] female appears.

            I was watching some nature program and it showed a variety of male animals occasionally being destructive and fighting with one another, until a female of that species was introduced, whereupon the males would RALLY AMP UP the destructiveness, as though they were bereft of self-control. Now, these were animals. They don’t have human sophistication, so we can’t expect as much out of them as we would like to expect from humans; YOU keep trying to convince me that [human] males across the board lack the couth and self-control to be allowed free in society.

            Oh, hey, maybe you’re correct that I SHOULD be triggered. Sadly, I’m too accustomed to the poor behavior of certain men, as well as the explanations as to why poor male behavior should be blamed on the existence of women.

          • Merry Christmas Mr Cricket

            You’re triggered AF right now and proving my precise point.

          • I thought cutesy, trendy buzzword “triggered” meant “bothered in some way”… which I’m not. I’m far, far more amused at your lack of insight than anything.

            Better luck next time. I mean, it takes a lot more than a guy hysterically sticking to a false point on da Interwebz to trigger little ol’ me, lol.

          • Merry Christmas Mr Cricket

            If you were aware of your own lack of self-insight I’m not sure if you’d be amused or terrified.

          • Wow, your comment is less than a minute old and already has an upvote! Look at youuuuu!

          • elduderino

            “SHE didn’t cause the mayhem and drama though…”

            yeah she did. did you even read the article? do you even know who tempest is and what she did when she played eve?

          • elduderino

            “most of the female players in EVE use male identities. I know I do; I know my daughters do.”

            considering how few parents play eve with their children to begin with, and considering how few women play eve at all. your little “story” (posited to support your narrative) rings false.

          • Oh, wow — can you please link me to your stats on parents and their kids who play vs. those who don’t play together? I admit I have totally been unable to find your source on that!

          • Merry Christmas Mr Cricket

            Cool.

          • Yeah, you were supposed to sign out of this screen name and use the sockpuppet one I was responding to.

          • Merry Christmas Mr Cricket

            Nice.

          • elduderino

            oh we’re source lawyering now?

          • Is that “oh we’re source lawyering now dot com? Dot org? Dot net? Which?

          • elduderino

            okay. time to put your smug away: all you have to do is look up the age distribution of eve players.

          • I can’t seem to find the mention of parents and their kids.

            I mean, you seem to have read some links that you found trustworthy enough to base your claims upon, so let me please look at any of those links.

            And I only fight smug with smug. You put yours away first before you get to tell others to.

          • elduderino

            you cant post links on disqus. you will have to do your own legwork and google “age distribution in eve online”. those numbers come directly from ccp. also from ccp is the fact that 96% of the playerbase is male. a most cursory glance at the age distribution and accounting for the gender ratio will reveal to you why your story is unlikely. do you need me to walk your hand through it?

          • I post links on disqus daily. So do many others. It seems it’s you once again who needs the hand-holding.

            I know that I list my gender as male, as do my daughters. So, yippee!!! According to possibly the least trustworthy source I’ve ever tripped over online (you), I get to be in the 96%!

            And I don’t recall ever being asked to fill out my parental relationships to other players… THAT is the link you need to provide. I suspect you’re waiting for me to get tired of repeating myself and watching you play the Southern Belle with fainting problems every time I re-bring it up. And *that* may be the *only* thing you’re correct about — I AM getting tired of watching you pathetically avoid supporting your original statement.

          • elduderino

            okay so i need to hold your hand through it i guess, cuz you’re trying to wiggle out of it with snark:

            let’s look at the math of it:

            0.5% of the playerbase is 18. when you get to 15, we’re talking about 0.15%. so assuming your daughters are teens, youre asking us to believe in not only one fraction of a percentage chance, but you’re asking us to do it more than once.

            if your have children who play eve, you’re asking us to also believe another set of small percentage points:

            on average a woman in the us/canada is 25 years old when she has her first child. so assuming your oldest child is 15, that would make you around 40 years old. any age you pick after 40 on the graph and it represents less than 2% of the eve playerbase. if youre oldest child is around the “average” age for an eve player (mid 20’s) that would put you in your 50’s: again, any age you pick after 50 represents less than half of a percentage point. so either way you slice the equation (young child or average age for an eve player) one side has below 1 percentage point, and probably both.

            taking into account the fact that you’re a woman and playing with daughters: women are 4% of the eve playerbase. so just take 4% of each percentage point: if your daughter is 15, that’s 0.006%…

            so when you take all these unlikely scenarios into consideration, the chance that youre actually telling the truth is really low.

            also i got a real laugh at you saying that that ccp, the owner and developer of eve, is the least
            trustworthy source on the demographics of eve’s playerbase.

          • So once again you rely upon a series of assumptions that came 100% from your own mind, rather than knowing — let alone using — actual facts. (No, I’m not acting surprised, I mean, who could be surprised you’re still relying on non-facts to make non-real assumptions?)

            Oh… see, I didn’t know that YOU were the “ccp, the owner and developer of eve”! Because I hadn’t doubted “ccp, the owner and developer of eve”… I had only doubted your continual avoidance of facts, as well as your history of sockpuppetry. Color my snark impressed!

          • elduderino

            “So once again you rely upon a series of assumptions that came 100% from your own mind”

            no actually its all demographic data released by ccp. all you have to do is google it and itll come right up. they frequently release data on their playerbase, both demographics and what the players do in the game.

            at this point youre just making yourself look foolish and desperate, i hope you do realize that.

            the person making assumptions here is you, when you made the suggestion that people were giving fake birthdates and misgendering themselves in large enough numbers to have an appreciable effect on the data. my only assumption is that most people are giving correct data – which is actually a reasonable assumption, since it assumes the least.

            “Oh… see, I didn’t know that YOU were the “ccp, the owner and developer of eve”! Because I hadn’t doubted “ccp, the owner and developer of eve”…

            so do you accept ccps demographic data on the playerbase or not?

            “I had only doubted your continual avoidance of facts”

            actually the only person here avoiding facts is you.

            “as well as your history of sockpuppetry.”

            ??

          • “no actually its all demographic data released by ccp”

            NOPE! Dense-boy, neither my age nor my children’s ages are specified — and you can’t be stupid enough to not have comprehended that. I mean, I presumed that you knew how to type and use verbs and nouns and adjectives all on your own, ergo believing that you were stupid rather than intentionally obtuse wasn’t my first instinct.

          • elduderino

            “NOPE!”

            um, yes it is. like is said, you can just look it up.

            “Dense-boy, neither my age nor my children’s ages are specified”

            not sure if you’re saying your ages aren’t on the graphc (which covers from 13 to 72…) or that you haven’t specified your ages. but really in either case it doesn’t matter: the graph is a curve, so its easy enough to estimate the likely percentage points, and the beautiful thing is that no matter what ages you put it, it always ends up supporting my premise that your story is likely false.

          • The more beautiful thing is that you keep assuming that “likely is” and “really is” are the same!

            My hat is off to you, I haven’t been this hardcore Polack-trolled for a while. I hope you can shed the worst-moron-who-ever-lived persona before you deal with anyone else. But as I said before, my patience with your inability to even pretend to not be trolling me is exhausted, so congrats again.

            I’m done feeding you.

          • elduderino

            okay so in other words you realize youve lost the argument and are walking off in a fit of anger with a few parting shots to save face.

            concession accepted then.

          • I am happy you see it that way… it means you are consistent in your inability to see things how they really are… so, thanks again for cementing my point EVEN FURTHER.

            I couldn’t have shown you to be so consistently devoted to being obtuse without all of your “help”.

            I am going to grant you the last word, as it is probably all you’ve ever been trying to achieve all this time.

          • elduderino

            whatever you say lady.

          • Merry Christmas Mr Cricket

            I get a definite “Cluster B” vibe from her.

          • Ooooh, now you’re a qualified mental health practitioner… it gets better!

            You’re sitting there responding to your own sockpuppet. On what is presumably (in the United States anyway) a stellar, beautiful day.

            You’re more of a Cluster “F”. Yeah, the censors won’t let me type what I wanted to type.

          • Merry Christmas Mr Cricket

            “Ooooh, now you’re a qualified mental health practitioner… it gets better!”

            “My husband and I adopted a good number of children [which I will not bother disclosing], some of whom have mental issues akin to yours. It isn’t easy taking care of your type.”

            Top kek.

          • elduderino

            “You’re sitting there responding to your own sockpuppet.”

            nah i just have him on follow. its funny to watch him argue with feminists and rip them apart.

          • Well if you “he” ever gets around to doing that, please let me know. I’d love to see you “him” actually accomplish a valid point.

            I suspect they’re rarer than February 29ths.

          • elduderino

            sounds like a problem on your end.

          • Merry Christmas Mr Cricket

            https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/2p2s7m/player_age_distribution_in_eve_online_oc/

            And if that’s not enough, from the EVE Online official channel:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVWC6I-FLEA

            All the numbers “The Dude” put forth in this thread are factually correct to the best of CCP’s knowledge regarding their playerbase. It’s more reasonable to assume that (most) people are using their correct DOB and gender when signing up for EVE online than it is to assume that huge numbers of players are lying.

            How did I find this obscure, esoteric information? I simply typed into google “EVE player ages”. The fact that you, like a child, refused to do such a simple thing, and instead sat there accusing “The Dude” of making things up, really says a lot about your character and integrity. It’s not surprising to me that you lack integrity because, well, you’re a woman.

            At this point I think it’s safe to *assume* that you probably don’t even play EVE Online, since you didn’t even seem to know who CCP was… calling them “the CCP”…

          • “[…] and instead sat there accusing “The Dude” of making things up […]”

            Yes, I sat here accusing him/you of NOT what you’re trying to contort me into having said or done, but rather that you/he started with the foreknowledge that neither I nor my daughters (nor a good amount of other females) admit to being female whilst playing this (or many other) game(s). THEN you/he humiliatingly attempted to use the data (which I never once addressed, let alone claimed to disbelieve) to somehow “prove” that because so few females are listed, I was not likely to have daughters who play the game with me. (Oh, and there was also the reliance upon the absurd canard that “most females” give birth at 25, thus illustrating better and better that you can’t math and logic at the same time — yeah, I used those as verbs intentionally.)

            I feel incredible compassion and pity for whomever has to take care of you. My husband and I adopted a good number of children [which I will not bother disclosing], some of whom have mental issues akin to yours. It isn’t easy taking care of your type. Despite being continually incorrect, you keep trying to contort what was said and use data that I never disputed… all in an attempt to sound righteous and to make me sound as though I dispute what’s real. Nope, I’ll say it again to your deaf, dumb, blind face: it is not only common for women to cloak ourselves as men online, in fact, in games it is actually expected. You’re sitting there [probably] trying to come off as intelligent all the while you’re hysterically also trying to tell me that you legit think that 96% of these players ARE IN FACT MALE??? You’re so clueless I don’t even think it’s worth insulting you! You’d probably not even get it!

            Go outside ffs. Scare some villagers. Get chased with pitchforks and leave some mutilated corpses in the nearby warrens. The Internet just ain’t for you, bub. Plus I’m ticked that I even had to respond to this after I told you I was tired of correcting you so handily.

          • Merry Christmas Mr Cricket

            “THEN you/he humiliatingly attempted to use the data (which I never once addressed, let alone claimed to disbelieve)”

            Actually you did – you kept harping for sources, as if they didn’t exist, and when “The Dude” said his numbers were from CCP, you dismissed them as being inaccurate, “untrustworthy”, and implied that enough people lie when they sign up to render the data too inaccurate to be used. And now that sources have been presented to you, you’re trying to backpedal.

            “to somehow “prove” that because so few females are listed, I was not likely to have daughters who play the game with me.”

            Yes it indeed follows that since 4% of the EVE playerbase is female, the likelihood of a mother playing EVE, let alone with her daughters (plural) is rather low. Especially, as “The Dude” pointed out, when you take into account the number of players in the age ranges that would make such a scenario possible.

            “(Oh, and there was also the reliance upon the absurd canard that “most females””

            That’s not what was said.

            “give birth at 25,”

            https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2016/01/14/cdc-the-median-age-of-first-time-motherhood-is-increasing

            “My husband and I adopted a good number of children [which I will not bother disclosing], some of whom have mental issues”

            Only 2.5% of children in the US are adopted. This further reduces the likelihood of your story being true, as only 2.5% of EVE players will come from adoptive homes on average: 2.5% of 4% is 0.001%.

            “it is not only common for women to cloak ourselves as men online, in fact, in games it is actually expected.”

            Got a source on that? 😉

            “You’re sitting there [probably] trying to come off as intelligent all the while you’re hysterically also trying to tell me that you legit think that 96% of these players ARE IN FACT MALE???”

            There you go, once again, disputing the data, even while you say that you’re not disputing the data.

            It’s interesting to point out that you’re not actually refuting any of the facts or reasoning presented; rather, just going on long tirades full of insults.

          • Yep, you’ve done it again. I can only hope you were wearing your best Brittney Spears outfit while doing so.

            I asked for the LINK that showed parents and their specific children playing (or even not playing). As I fully expected, I got no such thing, only the same thing I already pointed out was lacking in the specified data I was waiting to see proved. That isn’t me backpedaling, that’s me staying on the singular point I started with, stayed with, and now conclude with. No matter how hard you try to contort my actions, they have remained as I have stated.

            And just so you know, in addition to listing ourselves as male, we also fudge on the ages so as to avoid age/gender-specific marketing. If this concept is so foreign to you, I really should apologize to your parent(s) for having thought I was speaking with an adult. There is a lot of language I would now take back.

            Have a great Saturday! At least scoot some hoarded junk out of your window’s way and sit looking at the rest of the day’s beauty. Hop in to pool for a brisk swim. Eat something mentioned on the USDA Food Pyramid. There’s no benefit in trying to tell someone that they stated things that they never stated, nor is there a benefit in holding onto the premise which you held in ignorance now that you’ve been enlightened. There are far, far more women playing games with you online than will admit it, and it is you clutching your pearls and making it a dramatic affair.

            Fact.

          • Merry Christmas Mr Cricket

            “I asked for the LINK that showed parents and their specific children playing (or even not playing).”

            It’s not even needed. You can infer it from the numbers: The number of EVE players of age to have children old enough to play EVE is single digits. The number is even lower for people old enough to have children who are “average age” for EVE players. And the number of players of the right age to be minor children is even lower. No matter how much smoke you try to blow your story just isn’t plausible. Especially factoring in the whole “my children are all adopted”. The chance of your story being true is literally in the 0.00x% range.

            “That isn’t me backpedaling”

            No, backpedaling is when you question the data, and then say you’re not questioning the data. But go ahead and try to rewrite history even though it’s right there in th ecomments.

            “And just so you know, in addition to listing ourselves as male, we also fudge on the ages so as to avoid age/gender-specific marketing.”

            That’s cool. Also irrelevant.

            Noting again that you’ve failed to actually address, let alone refute, any arguments presented. Just posturing, rewriting history, and throwing insults about. At least we know you’re definitely female. In question is your claim that you play EVE at all.

          • elduderino

            “Nope, I’ll say it again to your deaf, dumb, blind face: it is not only
            common for women to cloak ourselves as men online, in fact, in games it is actually expected.”

            so i assume you have a source to show us on that?

          • Source? Sure. Look for anyone with two X chromosomes. Most of them are female, many of them are “sources”, as you call them.

            Or you can look up the difference between why men pretend to be women online versus why women pretend to be men. Either’s fine with me.

          • elduderino

            so no source then.