Initiative in the Farms and Fields


– How I found Eve to save myself from the grind, and I hope Eve saves itself.

The end of 2012 was a tumultuous time for me as a gamer. I was playing on a competitive League of Legends team, Riot Games had just announced the creation of a professional tournament called the LCS which the top 32 North American teams would gain entry to via a “play-in” tournament. At the time my team was often winning the top League weekly tournaments and was easily placed in the top 32 of the Ranked 5s ladder for North America. We had ambitions to qualify for the LCS tournament and become pro video gamers.

From a personal perspective this time for me was frenetic. Keeping up with the Joneses at the top of a video game requires intense practice. Most of my teammates were still in school or unemployed. I had a mortgage and a full time job, I’d come home from a day of work and spend 8-10 hours playing League only to pass out, wake up and do it again. A lot of the things I enjoyed doing – keeping up with politics, finance, and falling deep down the rabbit hole on a Wikipedia chain – were put aside. I distinctly remember talking to a friend one day and essentially having to fake my way through a conversation about a current event because I just hadn’t heard about it at all.

“I was looking for a game to get involved in seriously, but not one that demanded I give up my social life, my interest in learning, and many other things.”

Riot Games eventually came out with a rule list for this tournament that disqualified our team on a technicality and all our focus and effort frayed and fizzled in the way they often do, with an acrimonious breakup. I was able to reflect on the journey I had been on, it really was a ton of fun competing at the top of the game, but I was in my late 20’s, I could start feeling my reaction time slipping ever so slightly. Going forward, I was looking for a game to get involved in seriously, but not one that demanded I give up my social life, my interest in learning, and many other things.

Praise Boat: you could say DBRB is responsible for me playing Eve today. I had played in 2009 because I heard about Eve’s “no-grind” leveling system which really appealed to me, but after a few months of playing and doing group Drake ratting with my corp I realized that the grind wasn’t the experience, it was the gold (or ISK in this case). It just wasn’t for me. Growing up in the 90’s I got to experience some of the great old-school MUDs like Gemstone III, but long before EverQuest or World of Warcraft brought grinding to the gaming masses I had burnt out on “stance offensive/attack rat/stance defensive” and had vowed to not spend my time grinding anymore.


Around the time Asakai was in the news I happened to be glancing through the “MMO HMO” subsection on the Something Awful forums, not an area I often read. I saw the Eve thread and remembered how Asakai had piqued my interest again but thought back to Drake ratting. Still, I popped in and mentioned to them my issues and I was informed “Oh, you can train into this particular ship, called the Ishtar, and you just have to set up your drones and then they will do the work for you”. I thought, “Well, I suppose I can play for a month and see if I enjoy it”.

When I started playing in 2013 I was lost for what to do. Ted McManfist, the “Space Dad” of Theta, took me under his wing and showed me how to rat, how to defend the homeland, and generally how to have fun in this game. It was a great time for me. I spent time ratting and chatting on comms with friends, we’d talk about all kinds of topics. I’d put my Vexor Navy (later ishtar) in anoms and tab into Wikipedia while keeping one eye on the excellent Deklein intelligence network. If a bad guys came close we’d dock up and grab one of our terrible doctrine ships (this was about when I started tentatively taking my first steps into theory-crafting and coming up with ‘great’ ideas like cloaky remote-rep Myrmidons). We’d set up a gate camp and wait for the (inevitable) bomber or cloaky nullified T3 to come through. We’d try to get the decloak (we got pretty good at this), we’d bitch about nullification being a broken mechanic, but we’d still at least catch a T3 5% of the time and then we’d have a 700m ISK killmail to enjoy. If a gang came through, we’d fight them, if a fleet came through, we’d dock up and wait for a real FC to call for a fleet to counter them.

“One thing that was important to me was that I could spend a lot of time in the game, but I didn’t have to go back into what I’d experienced with League.”

One thing that was important to me was that I could spend a lot of time in the game, but I didn’t have to go back into what I’d experienced with League. I could read the news, chat with friends, watch YouTube videos on the 2nd monitor, etc. All that was about to end.

Up until this time ratters had a reasonable amount of “initiative”. That means they had options that they could initiate to positively affect their gameplay. If enemies came near you could set up a gatecamp and try to stop them. If you missed them you could fit your ratting ship with a surprise scrambler or disruptor and try to hold down the T3/bomber/other ship that attacked you until reinforcements got to you. Then CCP Fozzie revealed a change he had for interceptors where they would receive warp nullification by default. We were very wary about these changes because up until this point nullification was something that only very expensive T3 hulls could achieve.


As soon as the changes happened most of the previous dedicated hunters immediately switched to interceptors. At first we saw a lot of mixture; Taranises, Crusaders, Claws, all types. Our previous Slashers and Dramiels meant to decloak frigates were replaced with fast locking Kereses and Stilletos to try and catch these guys as they came through a gate. For the first few weeks we had decent success catching people at our gate camps and also changing our fits slightly to fight off the couple of Taranises that had us tackled. Then came the murderous Crows. At first we were just frustrated that our fits weren’t locking these interceptors but we were sure if we could increase sensor strength we would eventually get them locked. We experimented with over 4000 scan res and still couldn’t lock them. Doing some research we found out that there was a speed at which your ship “insta-warped” and because of a peculiarity in game mechanics even if your ship had no cloaking device the enemy gate camp had no chance of locking your ship.

“As the Crows started murdering Ishtars by the droves, getting HAC kills with one single interceptor, we started seeing Crows everywhere.”

So our gatecamps were broken. We still had our intel network but these new interceptors moved so fast that if you saw a report five or six systems away it meant they could be in your system very shortly if they decided to skip “checking” a few intervening systems, so the only way to be safe from them was to dock up if they were within 5+ jumps. Previously, this number had been one to two jumps. As the Crows started murdering Ishtars by the droves, getting HAC kills with one single interceptor, we started seeing Crows everywhere. There was no way to rat safely because there was always a Crow(s) within five systems of where you were.

I remember spending many days on the JU- undock researching counters to these Crows. We tried pipe-bombing but as these ships were warping to anomalies first we were almost always out of align. We tried putting a strong tackler like a Hawk at zero on the anom warp-in, but he would take aggro and have to warp off. It did work a few times but then the Crows started warping to anoms at 20 and warping off if a tackler was there. We put scramblers on our Ishtars but the Crows orbited at 30km and were too fast to catch. Ditto for light drones. We tried insta-’Nados but even with 1600 scan res and full tracking it was near impossible to lock and fire on a Crow before they warped back out, and you still took aggro in your glass cannon ship. Many other strategies were tried but eventually we realized there was no effective way to combat interceptors.

“Up until this point carrier ratting had been an oddity…”

Up until this point carrier ratting had been an oddity, you were using a really expensive ship to barely tick more than an Ishtar and the people who died in them were often mocked. However, around this time more and more people started to move over to them, they could effectively ignore Crows/Maledictions (these became the de facto ratting hunter after the Crow was nerfed) with their capital rep and tank anoms. Looking back at our old fits they seem comical now, they were mostly cap rechargers to perma-run a capital repper and some drone damage mods.

Our enemies adapted pretty quickly. The carriers had cynos but there wasn’t usually anyone to jump to them, our capital reps were barely stable around 30% and reaching jump capacity of 72% took about 90 seconds (or docking up, similar amount of time). The interceptors we had gleefully started ignoring in our carriers quickly started carrying cynos. They would warp to the carrier, point it, light the cyno and 30-40 bombers would appear. These bombers would quickly overcome the local reps (even if a triage module was equipped) and the carrier was dead in half a minute. Our enemies were trading interceptors for carriers and we had no response. We briefly set up a group of people who sat on the undock ready to jump to any cyno, but this group required 24/7 vigilance as there was always a cloaked guy or interceptor flying through our space. Our enemies only had to form up for five minutes, drop and kill, and be done, whereas to defeat this strategy we had to have our response force primed to go in 15 seconds from downtime to downtime. It wasn’t sustainable.


It was around this time that Tiberizzle started pushing what eventually became known as the “Tib-Fit” Chimera – an outrageously pimped x-type Chimera with a confusingly downsized medium shield repper. This four billion ISK loot piñata seemed insane, but once explained, the plan became clear. The Tib-Fit had an extremely stern tank, enough so that the 30-40 bomber drops we were seeing took three minutes to kill it. Because the tank was strong, the medium repper was all that was needed to maintain shields at a high level, and because the medium rep didn’t draw much cap you could rat at 72% capacitor level, meaning you were instantly ready to jump to the aid of an ally.

“It’s incredibly empowering to be able to defend yourself…”

After a year and a half of being easy prey with no recourse we finally had the initiative back. It’s incredibly empowering to be able to defend yourself where before you were basically forced to either dock up or roll the dice on dying randomly. Our enemies began to adapt, they started dropping mobile cyno inhibs when they dropped, but we were often able to get in before they onlined. Then they began watching what anoms carriers were doing and pre-seeding what they judged to be the most likely next anom with a mobile cyno inhib. If/when the carrier warped into that anom they would light their cyno, the carrier couldn’t counter-light and poof: dead 4b ISK carrier.

We settled into a comfortable equilibrium where Deklein is (according to zKill) the region with the most carrier losses in the last year, but we have options to defend ourselves. Being in carriers means we are online, in space, and usually in comms. We have a community built on mutual protection where each person relies on others to save them. And importantly, to me, it doesn’t require you to be tabbed in solely paying attention to only Eve. I can do that a few hours a day, but because of the happy accident CCP stumbled into with carrier ratting, I’m logged into the game, in space as a target for much longer. I spent more time engaged with friends because I haven’t burnt out trying to grind out some focus-intensive ratting activity.

We have a wide group of people who play with us in this style, moms with kids, a 73 year old man, many adults with kids in college (some even play the game with them) and people from all walks of life that aren’t hardcore gamers, who participate because CCP has given them a way to play this game that fits their lifestyle. CCP developers are hardcore gamers (it only makes sense) and I worry they may not see this. To the hardcore gamer who runs level 5s or incursions or WHs for his ISK, it only seems right to force others into this kind of style. I had always assumed we had a detente between these two groups. Where the incursion runners and L5 blitzers could make more ISK in almost complete relative safety, whereas each account I run makes me 60 million ISK an hour but I have to wager a four billion ISK ship in open space to do so. This always seemed fair to me.

The new fighter mechanics for carriers are RTS style in nature, requiring focused micro-management. Current CSM Chance Ravinne has compared them to RTS style games like Starcraft and mentions that corps may start looking for players with high “Action Per Minute” skills, a metric used to by Starcraft professional players. As it currently stands, CCP Larrikin has stated that CCP will not be programming auto-aggro mechanics that carriers currently enjoy into the new fighters that carriers must use.

“I worry about the grandfather who I spend time with on comms, his voice is not being heard by anyone but me.”

In the end, my hope is that this article reaches the right eyes at CCP, because I read all the same forums and subreddits that they do and I know the perspective of the hardcore gamer is represented there, but I worry about the grandfather who I spend time with on comms, his voice is not being heard by anyone but me. I want to put it out there. Many of the carrier ratting people I know are saying they are going to liquidate their carrier investments (market tip: if the changes do go through as announced watch for carrier character prices to plummet and a big depression in the price of skill injectors as these pilots are gutted by extractors and tons of SP added to the market) and put that money into moon-reacting. Reacting is an almost completely safe way of making ISK that doesn’t require you to micro-manage targets or run mission pullers around space, or all the other distasteful things many of us thought Eve wouldn’t require. In moving their money out of space into passive ISK making CCP will have done a great disservice, not only to the community who likes to carrier rat, but those who hunt them. Right now farms and fields is in full effect, soon that space could be barren except for a weekly check-up on reaction moons to ship in new materials.

Game developers have some latitude to force people to change, but you can’t force people to not have children anymore, or to just not be in a place in their life where spending 100% of your focus to manage a game account doesn’t burn you out in 30 minutes. CCP has stumbled on a happy accident in space now where there are copious targets and people who are happy to be targets because it fits their lifestyle. Pray that they don’t unintentionally get empty space and a less diverse group of subscribers because they decided to cater to only a subset of vocal Eve players.


Tags: Asher Elias, carriers, fighters, pve

About the author

Asher Elias

Asher Elias is the host of The Asher Hour Eve podcast and an FC in Goonswarm Federation.

  • Diana Olympos

    My question may be a bit strange but… what do you ned that ISK for?

    I mean, if i use 100 Mill a day that is a lot. Especially for someone that has few time to play… So why do you even need all that ISK. There is something i don’t understand here…

    • Alexhandr Shkarov

      It depends,

      I am a wormholer myself and that ISK relates to the higher-end ships we want to fly. A standard T3 fleet doctrine in wormhole space is easily 1-1.5b per T3. It can get pricey if you lose them or the pricey pods. It’s not mandatory to do the same in 0,0 / LS / HS but in w-space if you don’t play on a similar commitment along the top groups, you end up losing fights based on the amount of bling you use.

      • Kamar Raimo

        Yeah, but you wormholers fly around with 10-20 pimp fit ships which you have to pay for yourself, not in 200 man fleets of fleet fits that are given to you for free.

        • dragonshardz

          Most null/low groups only give away free T1-fit doctrine frigates – for newbies. Most everything else, you have to buy off someone in order to use and only get reimbursed when it dies, presuming it dies in combat.

          • Kamar Raimo

            Mwa. Even in smaller alliances I got ships handed out to me if I was willing to fly roles that were needed. Sometimes I was expected to give them back but more often than not I could keep the ship for next time.

      • sayod

        But wormhole sites give you the respective income. It is higher than null ratting, so where is the problem really?

    • AFK

      The issue is not the individual ratter. The issue is the amount of tax raked in by goon corps and how this is now threatened, so goons metagaming protocol is activated once again. I mean…

      ” I worry about the grandfather who I spend time with on comms, his voice is not being heard by anyone but me”

      …like, what the fuck l o l. It’s like an onion article.

  • callduron

    Money making in Eve is essentially zero sum. We all compete with each other to buy things. For instance plex used to be 300 million. Why are they over a billion now? Partly because of afk carrier ratting.

    Your proposed amendment, if accepted by CCP, transfers wealth, transfers buying power from players who actually play the game to afkers.

    As for your grandfather example, presumably he’s capable enough to play the game or else what would he need the isk for?

  • Fop

    TLDR: Old people dont have time to click the button to carrier rat wahh wahh dont take away our easy isk source. tldrb: We dont like having to defend our space and our ratters all the time wahh wahh.

    • AFK

      CCP hate grandpas. Fact.

  • Spada

    Please stop letting goons ratters write articles, they don’t have anything interesting to say and don’t have an interesting way of saying it.

    • Kamar Raimo

      But if we don’t we are being called a Grr Goon site 🙁

      Damned if you do. Damned if you don’t.

  • AFK

    Goofus whines in local after being hoy dropped.
    Gallant thanks the hotdroppers for teaching him a lesson.

    Goofus claims to be a disabled military veteran, or a single mother, or that carrier ratting is relaxing.
    Gallant admits that he has no good reason for ratting in a carrier.

    Goofus makes up excuses for being AFK while ratting.
    Gallant always remains at his keyboard.

    Goofus fills local with obscenities when a cyno inhib gets onlined.
    Gallant promptly pays 10 million isk to the MOA donation board.

    Goofus spends all day ratting to accumulate isk.
    Gallant only takes as much ISK as he needs.

    Goofus begs CCP to keep auto drone aggro.
    Gallant uses a vindicator to improve their DPS.

    Goofus moans endlessly about MOA and npc trash.
    Gallant admires all forms of emergent gameplay.

    Goofus boasts about being a pubbie meatshield in a sea of 40k blues.
    Gallant recognizes his place is at the bottom of the EVE hierarchy.

  • GrouchyOldGamer

    This is a really well written article.

    I wouldn’t class players that log on to play with their
    attention in the client as ‘hardcore’

    Players can still use carriers to rat.

    What they can’t do is semi-afk rat whilst using an automated
    alarm system which collates data from the intel channels and alerts players
    when bad guys are on the way.

    That’s not a bad thing.

  • ICEMAN!!!!

    If AFK ratting is a must use an Ishtar…. pretty simple. If you want to carrier rat…. then active rat. Hopefully with the new changes you’ll get better ticks anyways. Finally, why should carrier changes be held back to placate a few casuals when the PvP WANTS these carrier changes. These changes are going to be epic for the PvP carrier pilots. It’s what we’ve been asking for all along. A new role for carriers that’s relevant…… CCP delivered.

  • Not an FC

    Ok, So your moaning about being unable to AFK rat anymore… which is a good thing if your undocked you should have to pay attention….

    60m an hour is pretty pathetic for carrier ratting, i run a thanatos when i decide to rat and i regularly pull in 45-50m ticks so about 140-150m an hour… and thats because i pay attention and micro manage not just log in and go AFK…

    So using that info if you rat for half the time… but make double the isk by actually playing the game then i dont see an issue?

    sounds to me as if your just butthurt because CCP is changing the game for the better and you can play another game and make all the isk you do now…

    Moon mining JFI is also being changed not sure on the specifics but i think they are changing it so that you must be actively mining the moon rather than more AFK bullshit…

    If you play AFK you deserve to die…. If you die AFK or get dropped AFK in any ship in my corp you get kicked… if you want an AFK game try Farmville

    • Dumbdumb

      What are you even talking about, you completely owned yourself at the end.

      How can they deserve to die for being AFK when they can no longer AFK?


    • Kamar Raimo

      If people can get away with being AFK then they should. However, if they can’t they should also not complain.It’s not something they are entitled to.

      I think that the ATK ratter deserves much more ISK and if there were a mechanic that encourages that, I’d be for it. After all, the game should reward people for actually being engaged.

  • Rob Kaichin

    My first question: why is AFK ratting a good thing?

    My second: where does all that ISK go, which is produced by AFK ratting?

    My third: where does your knowledge of the completeness of the capital changes come from?

    My fourth: how do you know that you’re not going to be able to AFK rat?

    • Mostlyharmlesss

      1: Because it puts a player in space which gives said player ISK and a target for people hunting said player.
      2: Same place as any other player would spend it
      3: He doesn’t say he have any knowledge of the capital changes however;
      4: CCP has straight up announced that Afk ratting for carriers is dead with their new fighters as they will have to be controlled manually.

      If you are unsure of these things, I would recommend you re-read the article as it covers all of your questions.

    • The first two are speculative and matters of opinion, but the third question is a matter of paying attention to news coming from CCP and sponsored events. In this case, the information came from the recent EVE_NT event.

      The fourth question is answered in the post. If you know how drones work now, you’ll know that they auto aggress, which is to say, they go attack things on their own. CCP Larrikin saying that there will be no auto aggression with the new fighter mechanics, something I heard him say myself at EVE Vegas, at which time I assumed carrier ratting was going to die, since that means players must actively control your fighters.

      • Rob Kaichin

        While I’ll agree that #1 is opinion, #2 is absolutely not speculative.

        AFK Carrier ratting is a large ISK faucet. It causes inflation, which affects the price of PLEX. We know this because CCP’s talked about it at Fanfest, which they stream.

        Which leads me to my second point: It’s wonderful to be in-the-know if you attend a Meetup, but it’s unfair of CCP to tell only a select group of people about proposed changes, and not to update the rest of the playerbase. I’ve not seen any Dev-blogs released after EVE_NT, and that’s disappointing.

        One might say it’s an unfair advantage .

        • #2 is TOTALLY speculative. Or do you believe that Asher knows how every AFK ratting carrier pilot spends their ISK? Besides “into the economy” there is no universal correct answer, aside from maybe “on PLEX” and “on that next carrier after I lose this one.”

          As for unfair advantage of attending an event, words fail me. You seem to be looking for something to complain about with that. After all, *I* didn’t attend… the whole thing being 8,000 miles away… yet I found all that information on EVE blogs. There is literally a post HERE on CZ about how fighters will work from a member of the CSM.

          So you might as well complain that reading blogs or the forums or EVE news sites or otherwise putting some effort into staying informed confers unfair advantage. And guess what, it does.

          • Rob Kaichin

            Woah, steady on.

            My first two questions weren’t “ASHER, TELL ME WHAT YOU KNOW”, they were general questions for anyone to answer. #3 and #4 were specific to Asher, and they were both semi-sarcastic. Since, you know, the changes haven’t been shipped to tranquillity yet, and thus no-one knows the full set of changes.

            As for “unfair advantage”, that was a sarcastic reference to the new Eula changes, which could do with a little tightening of the language. I thought that was obvious, but obviously it wasn’t. (I put them in Italics too!)

            Finally, I’ve read the same articles you have. I’ve commented on some of them. That doesn’t give me full and complete knowledge of how they’ll play. AFK Carrier ratting might be going away, but FAXes will have a drone bay, and it seems obvious to me that that ticks the “can light a cyno, has remote reps, can launch drones” list of boxes that make AFK ratting possible.

            So, I have the same access to the online information that you do. I can’t press the developers in person at an event, nor can I hear them say ” there will be no auto aggression with the new fighter mechanics”.

            Yes, my tone didn’t carry at all through the pipes of the interweb, but that doesn’t mean there’s some truth to my point.

          • The use the sarcasm encoding as outlined in the preliminary draft of RFC 2017. Is it your first day here or what?

      • Sootsia

        I am curious as to how many of the above respondents, from the author down,,,, actually carrier rat. especially when terms like 5 bill carriers, and fighters are used. I have ratted in carriers,,,, and I have ratted in Supers….. so I think I may know what I am talking about when I say the following: If your ratting in a 5 bill carrier…. your doing it wrong…. 2 bill is MORE than sufficient…. and if your AFK ratting, your SENTRY ratting, not using Fighters…. fighters… MAY, or may not aggress on warp in…… and that is usually the extent of their so called auto aggress….Fighters,,,,98% of the time, require micro management…. active targeting, and sending each group to their respective targets,,,, much as proposed in the capital changes…. the correct term is not fighters… but drones such as those drones favored by auto aggression in such drone boats as the Gila, Ishtar, Domi etc…..

        In regards to isk Sinks/Faucets…. comparing null sec ratting as the reason isk is so inflated…. is ludicrous,,,, Plex prices started dramatically rising with incursions,,,,, and then the more intense focus on FW,,,,, and more love given to HS mission running….. Null sec today, is less populated with ratters…. more empty underused space….

        100+ Mill ticks? not from a carrier on its best day(60m) without faction rats,,,, your talking supers here…… and then one has to balance the massive EHP tank vs the risk of everyone and his brothers uncle hunting your supper

  • asdf

    I think people should get good at pvp and stop seeing it as just a thing that costs isk. if you are good at it, it gets you money. breaking even in pvp is easy.

  • Anhenka

    While the article is well written, the point is not. As someone who has never been in such a massive protected blue blob that afk ratting in 5 bil carriers is viable, listening to people whine about being unable to rat while not paying attention is similar to hearing someone complain that their car is only a Ferrari, and not Lamborghini.

    Welcome to actually playing the game like the rest of us.

  • Adam

    I don’t see the argument so much as whether carrier ratting should be a thing, but rather what kinds of semi-AFK activities EVE should offer. I agree that getting 50-150 million ISK per hour for sitting there and running if anyone shows up is a bit high, we do need things for more casual people to do.

    Setting up PI and playing the markets are about the only non dangerous options available. Some people just want to log in and enjoy the social aspect while being productive in a non adrenaline inducing way. It shouldn’t pay as much as being active, but it should definitely be an option.

  • Messiah Complex

    It’s an interesting perspective. I do not dismiss it, but it seems to me that the “happy accident” you’ve described is a situation that the capital and citadel changes are (in part) intended to disrupt. My guess is that CCP wants those changes to back-door resource scarcity into the 0.0 meta. In other words, all that wealth will still be there, but it will be harder to reap consistently.

    In any case, this was a good article, and you should write more.

  • Kamar Raimo

    I begin to become really bored with those first-world problems.

    I am someone with regular employment myself and I am absolutely aware of the fact that I wont be able to compete with the unemployed or student alpha nerds with no life. So be it. I still managed to live in smaller nullsec alliances where you had to be self-sufficient. One just needs to be resourceful and above all make do with what you can do. I was never poor, although I wasn’t ever rich either. I didn’t have 10 alts which I all plexed, I had two or three and it was absolutely sufficient for my lifestyle.

    In a major coalition the argument becomes even more baseless. You get tossed ships and skillbooks left and right, and all you need to spend ISK on is your personal ratting ships or some hobby ships. In the end people open up alts “to have fun” elsewhere and expect to PLEX them with their ratting alts which they of course also want to PLEX.

    These days I have very little time to actually play, and I simply changed my lifestyle, living in lowsec where I can fly cheaper ships and make do with much less ISK. I could actually still live in null and have no trouble to get action if I were in a large coalition. After all what would I need ISK for? Everything I need to participate in the available content is provided for anyway.

    If the same gripe would have come from someone in a small null alliance who is just holding on by the skin of their teeth, I could have taken it seriously, but as it stands it really is like a poster below put it: “similar to hearing someone complain that their car is only a Ferrari, and not Lamborghini”

    • tcjstn

      “In a major coalition the argument becomes even more baseless. You get tossed ships and skillbooks left and right, and all you need to spend ISK on is your personal ratting ships or some hobby ships. In the end people open up alts “to have fun” elsewhere and expect to PLEX them with their ratting alts which they of course also want to PLEX.”

      What is this based off of? I’ve bought every single one of my ships for fleet fights with my own ISK that I get from ratting. Granted, the SRP is fantastic and so ship loss is not as bad as it could be, but I don’t get doctrine fits “tossed [at me] left and right”.

      “all you need to spend ISK on is your personal ratting ships or some hobby ships.”

      Previous statement is nullifies this one. Also, this is a terrible statement to assume in the first place.

      “After all what would I need ISK for? Everything I need to participate in the available content is provided for anyway.”

      These assumptions doe. Your entire argument seems to be orbiting more and more on the (errant) fact that somehow ratters in null “don’t need ISK” and have everything spoonfed to them. PSA: I rat in null. Still need ISK cause I do my own thing till fleets happen. Mmmk.

      “similar to hearing someone complain that their car is only a Ferrari, and not Lamborghini”

      See this is where I draw issue. Whether my “car” is a Ferrari or a Honda, I don’t want to lose it. Just like in real life. If diligence is defeated by the tools that CCP provides to roaming gangs (if you bothered to read the whole thing, you’ll notice a significant portion of the post is dedicated to the effort put forth to defeat said gangs, specifically Crows, and not bemoaning AFK ratting without any investment of time in making their space “safe”, but far be it from me to assume amirite?), what course does anyone have? Ratters are, after all, the prey. You’re acting as if because the prey make money, they should suck it up.

      I’d reexamine your position without the assumption that every ratter in null sec, whether in a “large alliance” or not, automatically rats afk or somehow has “ships thrown at them” or “only spends ISK on ratting ships”. I have one alt, I’m in null sec, and I have only a small amount of ISK in which to spare on ratting ships because I buy my own doctrine ships. I show as much diligence as I can while ratting and I agree with the writers general premise.

      • Kamar Raimo

        Yeah sure, you got to make an initial investment for doctrine ships, but if you lose them you get it reimbursed “yolo. already replaced”

        If you don’t fly the heavy stuff and you volunteer to fly logi, dictors or tackle you *do* get free ships. In the end you really don’t need that much ISK to live in null, and even less to be embedded in a major alliance that doesn’t have self suffiency at the center of their organisational principle.

        • tcjstn

          “If you don’t fly the heavy stuff and you volunteer to fly logi, dictors or tackle you *do* get free ships.”

          Right. So you’re saying that I need to limit my playstyle (only fly certain ships) in order that your viewpoint make sense. And in order that your viewpoint remain relevant to the article above, I never lose ratting ships either because ratting ships are only *ever* lost to stupidity and not the gameplay that’s now allowed for: interdiction immune interceptors that have particular advantages, also mentioned above.

          I mean, I suppose if you eliminate all extenuating variables, yeah…I don’t need ISK as a player in null sec.

          • Kamar Raimo

            You called me out for hyperbole, and rightly so. Now you are taking it too far yourself though. I didn’t say anybody needed to limit their playstyle, I was questioning that limit they set for themselves.

            If people can have several plexed alts they are not lacking for ISK. Maybe they don’t need all those alts if they focus their playstyle on what they want to do. In the past of my EVE carreer I had one alt i used for PvP and PVE because they had good ship skills. I had another alt I used for hauling and later jumpfreighters, and I had an alt for lighting my cynos and finding lucrative sites. That covered all I needed. The current inflation of alts which ever increase the need for more minmaxed playstyles is an unrealistic benchmark, but everyone wants to achieve it.

            My point being, you can be self-suffient and not lose ships in nullsec while you do less than the super optimal isk/hr sites and you can live on that ISK easily. You can even live profitably, but these days everyone seems to want to be a super-rich guy with several plexed alts that can fly caps. Get real!

          • tcjstn

            “I didn’t say anybody needed to limit their playstyle”
            You did when you said:
            “If you don’t fly the heavy stuff and you volunteer to fly logi, dictors or tackle you *do* get free ships.”

            I understand that your experience in Eve is probably very similar to mine. In fact, my singular alt is used for everything not pvp related. Cyno’s (moved him manually), hauling, freighters etc. So I’ve never needed more than one alt in any situation. If, however, I were to find a hole that neither of my characters could fullfill, I would create another character to fill that gap.

            The assumption you’re making here with: “everyone seems to want to be a super-rich guy with several plex alts that can fly caps” doesn’t have anything to do with the article written. The author didn’t want to have CCP support or encourage multiple accounts with cap abilities. In fact, he wrote extensively on the necessity of every increasing costs of the defender to combat the rarely increased costs of a roaming gang member. After all, if a inty can take down a HAC…and can you believe that even AFTER they made recons invisible to directional scan, people were calling for local to be removed! As if it isn’t easy enough to attached a cyno to an inty and pop in 30 bombers already (ALSO mentioned in the above article.)

            This discussion was never about whether or not a pilot could survive in Eve. Obviously our experiences have proven that. Nor was it about having “10 PLEX accounts” or “several plex alts that can fly caps”. It was always about the ever increasing options available to a roaming pilot (cheap ships removing vastly more expensive ones) without tools being provided on the opposite side. That being said, a lack of equal tools on both sides can hinder player involvement as was mentioned with the 70 year old man.

            I’m not advocating for easier null sec in the least. It’s a dangerous and often deadly area and should absolutely remain so. If you’re stupid, then yeah: die in a fire. It’s the Eve way. But if EVERY tool were reduced like here: “We still had our intel network but these new interceptors moved so fast that if you saw a report five or six systems away it meant they could be in your system very shortly if they decided to skip “checking” a few intervening systems, so the only way to be safe from them was to dock up if they were within 5+ jumps.” and is nullified by ship and situational abilities…then I’m inclined to agree with the author. CCP needs to be careful.

          • Kamar Raimo

            Sure thing. CCP should not allow the game become imbalanced towards one side or the other.

            However, ever since I have been involved in nullsec – and then I mean since the end of 2008 – I have heard people whine how they can’t have their cake and eat it.
            These days I see people in lowsec – probably one of the least forgiving environments of EVE – who still manage to make dank ISK. Gorski Car wrote a whole expose how he got terribly rich in FW space. Sure it isn’t the same as the AFK ratting ISK of nullsec. You have to be on your toes, but for that you get a lot of income. Same goes for wormholes. They don’t even know if someone is setting up to gank them.

            All I’m saying is, that there are people in the nullsec community who are complaining that they can’t become rich by being AFK, and I am calling that ridiculous. No matter how many children they have or how many hours they work. If it turns out that they can’t be asrich as the “competetive alpha nerds with no life who have it worked out to the t, then they have to deal with that. Maybe they will have to buy a PLEX once in a while instead of PLEXing thier accounts. I know I did

          • Arrendis

            Re: Lowsec and W-space

            Lowsec can be dangerous, sure. Unless you hook up with an active group that stays in a particular area and watches out for one another. Then it can be just as safe as null – safer, really, because the big crap can’t get into the smaller plexes, and nobody can bubble you. It doesn’t take a genius to set up intel channels for reporting outsider movements.

            And w-space is only as dangerous as you let it be. When I lived in w-space, we had procedures for minimizing risk. They were effective enough that at least one member of our corp who was terrified of PVP (don’t ask me why, I don’t know) was caught telling people ‘oh, no, mining in a wormhole is perfectly safe and relaxing’. And promptly got teased a bit for it, because the only reason she felt so safe was there were a bunch of us being paranoid all around her.

            All of which is pretty much exactly the same as nullsec, except in microcosm. The w-space pickets, cloaked up on wormholes listening for activation while they watch their probes and d-scan refresh? Those are replaced by guys in other systems, actively reporting on the movement of hostiles. But it’s still people being active and attentive that makes it work.

        • Arrendis

          If you don’t fly the heavy stuff and you volunteer to fly logi, dictors or tackle you *do* get free ships.

          We don’t give away logi, dictors, or tackle for free, as a general policy. And I don’t want someone volunteering to fly logi because they think they’ll get a free ship. I want logi pilots who know that killmails are empty, meaningless bullshit, who aren’t trying to scam insurance or SRP payouts, and who want to focus on being exceptionally good at keeping the rest of their fleet alive. Period.

          • Kamar Raimo

            Dunno, I was mostly with smaller alliances which most of the time didn’t even have SRP but FCs would still regularly offer tacklers dictors and logi for free or at least very cheap. Even where I am in lowsec that happens regularly, at least you can have a ship and only pay for it if you lose it, and then only if it’s something that costs a bit more, like a faction fit Guardian

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  • Fat Elvis

    I think you can set the new fighters to attack all in a area of space, i think i heard somewhere maybe?? which would help with what your talking about, maybe.

  • callduron

    Oh and another thing and I think this is important. The playstyle of ratting afk until you hear the low shield ping then tabbing in, lighting a cyno and being rescued by your buddies is NOT a general feature of nullsec. Test can’t do it, nor Infamous, PL would have a field day if some kitchen sink home defence ratting carrier fleet spontaneously occurred.

    This style only works for ratters protected by the largest super blob in the game.

    In other words this article is a plea for the CFC to be allowed to continue to afk rat when no one else in nullsec can.

    Worse, if this plea is accepted it would firmly encourage blue doughnutting and consolidation which has already driven many players away from the game.

  • Arrendis

    So, I have a question for all the guys who are saying ‘why should people be able to make ISK while AFK?’. Because I don’t disagree with your premise. CCP should be striving for all ISK-making activities to be active and engaging ones.

    Then again, CCP should be pushing for all in-game activities to be active and engaging ones.

    My question is: If carrier ratting is so terrible, why is station trading ok? It’s a largely afk activity that people can make billions on in a day, if they make the right investments ahead of time. Why is running L4s in high-sec ok? The ISK’s not far short of null ratting, and it’s just as afk if you’re using the right ships.

    If those things aren’t ok, why aren’t you saying that to CCP? If they are ok, why? I hope the answer is something better than ‘because it’s not people we don’t like who are doing it’.

    • Gully Alex Foyle

      People whine about high-sec PVE often enough.

      But station trading is a bad example, because it’s PVP. You make ISK only if other players give it to you. And the mechanics are so simple there’s no point in discussing them: sell, buy, place orders. Strictly ATK obviously. If you go AFK or log out, somebody else has a chance to make a deal in your place. It’s entirely up to you to place orders wisely. And entirely up to other players to mess with you or force you to trade more actively by being smarter, more aggressive or more ATK than you.

      Back to the article, what’s happening is that CCP is overhauling fighter mechanics in a pretty cool way that holds a lot of promise. Who cares about the collateral damage to some players’ ISK-making activity? Switch to another one, there’s plenty. Adapt and evolve, isn’t that what good EVE players should be good at?

      • Arrendis

        But wouldn’t that make station trading worse? Just because it’s PVP doesn’t make it inherently better – you’re not putting yourself at risk, you’re not putting your assets at risk. And no, it’s not ‘strictly ATK’. There are plenty of folks making bank out there by betting in the laziness of the majority of the playerbase.

        And sure, ‘people’ whine about high-sec PVE often enough – but are they the same people? Or are the folks here who are mocking Asher for a legitimate concern* giving everyone else a pass, and just finding a reason to hit Asher because they don’t like who he flies for?

        * – ‘hey, CCP, I’m a customer, and you’re reducing my desire to play’ is a legitimate concern. The specific subject may or may not be something you agree with, and CCP certainly has a right to change their game as they see fit, but that doesn’t make the concern any less valid from the standpoint of a player and a paying customer.

        • Just a Decoy

          Station traders are absolutely putting their assets at risk – there’s the possibility that they lose ISK due to miscalculating market supply/demand, someone dumping stock, or another trader deciding to take over their market and undercutting them until they’ve gone broke or left, at which point they’d need to put in all the work they did to find the initial opportunity all over again. Just because the assets they lose don’t generate killmails doesn’t mean they aren’t losing assets.

          As for your implication that everyone mocking this just hates Asher the Imperium and doesn’t care about the actual content: Bullshit. The core of his post is “CCP please don’t take away our ability to make huge amounts of ISK with almost no effort in near complete safety”.

          He’s specifically complaining not just about losing the ability to AFK farm itself – note that the VNIs and Ishtars he started out by discussing are still perfectly viable for AFK ISK making – but about losing the ability to do so behind a massive EHP buffer with every other carrier ratter in a 5LY range on speed-dial for protection.

          If anyone else, regardless of affiliation, made the claim that CCP need to preserve their ability to make over 100mil ISK/hr per account while barely interacting with the client in near total safety to help the poor grandpas and single mothers they would also be laughed at, just as Asher is.

          About the only difference Asher’s affiliation makes is that the CFC has a long tradition of spin and propaganda pieces in particular, against which this one is being judged and found particularly wanting. The fact we expect better propaganda from the Imperium’s members than “won’t someone please think of the women and elderly” doesn’t change that we’d laugh at anyone making the argument

          The truth of the matter is that nullsec ratting should be an activity that requires attention and input to remain reasonably safe. If that’s not an option for a player due to IRL concerns that doesn’t mean they’re not welcome in New Eden – there are plenty of other ISK making activities they could choose from which have less risk or better suit players who need to go AFK on short notice, however the safety or convenience likely means they won’t earn quite as much ISK/time as someone actively ratting.
          Just as a few suggestions for the grandpa that only Asher talks to, he could look into PI production, manufacturing, station trading or maybe he and some of his friends could set up a mining fleet which trades off the squad or wing commander position whenever the current occupant has to go AFK, so that there’s always someone paying attention to warp them all to safety.

          • Arrendis

            Just like the AFK ratter, they’re only putting at risk the assets they’re willing to risk. So where’s the difference?

            As for my ‘implication’, I refer you back to my original statement. It’s not an implication, it’s a question: do they feel this way? If I say ‘hey, do you like bacon?’ I’m not implying you like bacon, I’m asking whether or not you do. Now, I could infer something from the way you respond… ie: if you get really angry and defensive about whether or not you like bacon, I could infer that you do like bacon, and are incensed that I might impugn your bacon-liking… or I could infer that you don’t like bacon, and the idea of liking bacon offends you. Either way, were I to infer that, I’d be doing both of us the same disservice you are by reading an implication into my statements that isn’t there.

            Now, I’m not going to argue that you shouldn’t expect better propaganda pieces from Imperium members. I mean, hell, I expect our agitprop to be top-notch at all times. But this isn’t that – this is one player expressing his opinion, and it should be taken as one player expressing his opinion. But at the same time, he’s definitely provoking a reaction – which tells me that either people are reacting to the issue, or to the man.

            As an editor over at TMC, that reaction is of considerable interest to me. If they’re reacting to the issue, then we want to look at that. If they’re reacting to the person, then why? As Asher’s a generally personable fellow who gets along with his opposites in other organizations (like PL, The Culture, etc), the inference (which, again, isn’t 100% reliable hard data) is that it’s because of his affiliations.

            Either way, the answer to the question I asked is of interest to me. So I asked. Which, again, is different from implying that the answer is ‘of course’ that there’s bias against him and his affiliations.

            As someone whose in-game income comes from non-ratting sources, it’s also a matter of personal curiosity, but mostly, I’m interested in gauging just what it is people are reacting to, so we can look at why, and what, if any, effect that should have on our focus and coverage.

          • Just a Decoy

            I didn’t imply there was a difference between AFK ratting and station trading – in point of fact I was correcting your claim that station traders didn’t risk any assets.

            Since you’ve asked though, I think the obvious difference would be that the station traders have accepted that their playstyle has a certain fundamental nature, one that rewards research, analysis and planning behind the scenes and takes very few ingame actions. They aren’t complaining that it doesn’t allow them to shoot spaceships as part of the process, for example.

            In contrast it seems the AFK ratters are refusing to accept that nullsec ratting isn’t an activity anyone should be able to do both safelya and without paying attention and they are apparently attempting to push CCP to add in mechanics to allow them to have their cake and eat it on that front.

            As Asher implied and as I’ve mentioned myself, VNIs and Ishtars will still be perfectly viable platforms for ratting without paying attention, just that they’ll be vulnerable to players taking advantage of that lack of attention. Alternately, players willing to pay attention will be able to reliably avoid hostile players and get to operate in safety. And those who want both have a slew of options other than ratting which simply exchange the need to be active and pay attention for lower ISK/time.

            Your question aside, you seem to be drawing two different either/or lines that don’t really exist.

            To begin, you’re saying that you asked a question, rather than making an implication, when the fact is you did both;
            “And sure, ‘people’ whine about high-sec PVE often enough – but are they the same people?”
            is a question, but when you follow it up with
            “Or are the folks here who are mocking Asher for a legitimate concern* giving everyone else a pass, and just finding a reason to hit Asher because they don’t like who he flies for?”
            then it becomes an implication as well. You’ve gone from a non-judgemental inquiry to tacking on… well, implications with that second half.

            To put it another way, there’s a difference between your question “Do you like bacon?” and “Do you like bacon? Or are you some kind of filthy vegan?”, you see?

            You’ve done the same thing with the article itself – claiming it’s not propaganda, but “one player expressing his opinion”. Again, it’s both. It’s hard to argue that the piece is just a player’s opinion when they say themselves in that piece
            “my hope is that this article reaches the right eyes at CCP”.

            Likewise, you can’t really say a piece is JUST one player’s opinion when they start bringing others’ experiences into the mix –
            “We have a wide group of people who play with us in this style […] who participate because CCP has given them a way to play this game that fits their lifestyle.”
            It’s not just a personal opinion piece of he’s claiming to speak for everyone in that wide group.

            It’s also hard to argue that a piece isn’t propaganda when it includes lines like
            “I worry about the grandfather who I spend time with on comms, his voice is not being heard by anyone but me”.
            That may well be true, I’m not in Asher’s head, but it’s also language chosen to provoke an emotional response in the reader, which makes it propaganda.

            The fact that it’s so overt in that attempt makes it bad propaganda, which is why I bring up the fact that we expect a higher standard from the Imperium in particular. But as I said earlier we’d laugh at anyone making such a blatant emotional play, especially in the defence of AFK carrier ratting of all things.

          • Arrendis

            As a point, no, I said the article wasn’t our propaganda. It’s not. This article is in no way part of any organizational push. Before publishing it here, Asher and I discussed the piece – he had a personal agenda for publishing it here, and not on TMC, for example. I don’t necessarily think his decision was right, but it’s his piece, his issue… his decision.

            Not a piece of Imperium agitprop. Asher propaganda? I guess you could call it that, rather than an advocacy piece. It’s one player’s opinion. He’s claiming to speak for others, but the piece comes from Asher, not from any official outlet. If, for example, the US President pens an op-ed for the New York Times, that’s not a statement made by the US Government. People can take individual positions, even if they’re part of a larger group. vOv

            And no, asking “Or are the folks here who are mocking Asher for a legitimate concern* giving everyone else a pass, and just finding a reason to hit Asher because they don’t like who he flies for?” is not judgmental. It is in fact, asking that question.

            Judgmental would have been: “Or are the folks here who are mocking Asher for a legitimate concern as biased a bunch of grr goons jackasses as they seem to be?”

          • Just a Decoy

            I hate to keep saying it, but you’re wrong again. The US President cannot pen an op-ed and not expect it to be taken as a statement by the US President, and therefore by the US Government. In point of fact in most cases whenever you’re “on the clock” as it were your actions will be taken as reflections of that position, rather than you as an individual. Positions like President are simply ones where the occupant is never assumed to be off the clock.

            The same applies here; regardless of Asher’s intent when he wrote and published this, he’s a well-known member of the Imperium and when he writes about EVE it will be taken as “a statement by a prominent Imperium member”, not just “a piece by an EVE player”. That goes double when the post he’s writing claims talks about Imperium tactics and claims to be written on behalf of a “wide group” of Imperium members he plays with.

            It doesn’t exactly help that his “About the Author” section also includes “an FC in Goonswarm Federation” either; again, drawing attention to his ingame position is going to conflate this piece with that position.

            So this is a piece of propaganda, which is something we’ve established, written by a notable Imperium member who considers his position within the Imperium to be one of the two most important things to know about him and claiming to be written on behalf of other Imperium members. That makes it Imperium propaganda – your propaganda. It might not be official Imperium propaganda, but it’s still Imperium propaganda.

            As for the question of judging whether your question is judgemental or not, you’ve actually answered that one for me. There’s no difference between
            “Or are the folks here who are mocking Asher for a legitimate concern* giving everyone else a pass, and just finding a reason to hit Asher because they don’t like who he flies for?”
            “Or are the folks here who are mocking Asher for a legitimate concern as biased a bunch of grr goons jackasses as they seem to be?”
            except that the first version uses slightly nicer language. It casts just as much judgement as the second version; that people are biased jackasses who are mocking Asher for no better reason than that they don’t like his coalition rather than because they actually disagree with his opinion that it is important that players be able to rat in space in nullsec in such a level of safety that they can frequently walk away from their computers and expect their ship to be effectively impossible to kill with no input from them until they get back, so as to preserve their ISK making.

          • Arrendis

            The current US President has, in fact, penned several contributions for Time Magazine over the years of his administration. So apparently, yes, he can. If, for example, he opines that his favorite color is purple, this doesn’t mean purple is the official color of the United States.

            And no, the first one doesn’t pass judgment at all. The fact that you read that judgment into it, though? That speaks volumes.

          • Just a Decoy

            Of course the US President can write pieces for Time Magazine – I never said he wasn’t able to, or wasn’t “allowed” to. What he cannot do is separate what he’s writing from the context of the Presidential office. Just to use your own example, if he says, speaking purely personally as Barack Obama, “my favourite colour is purple” then Barack Obama, US President might find purple suddenly cropping up a lot more in displays when he visits other countries.

            That is the case with Asher here – he can write a piece from the perspective of “Asher Elias, EVE player” but that doesn’t change that he’s also “Asher Elias, notable Imperium player and FC”. By putting his name to it – and including that he’s an Goonswarm FC in his “about the author” section so that people who don’t recognise his name still know he’s a notable Imperium member – he’s attaching whatever baggage comes with his name as well. In this instance that “baggage” is that it’s being written by an Imperium member who is advocating on behalf of other Imperium members. As I said before, it may not be official Imperium propaganda but it’s still Imperium propaganda by virtue of those associations.

            That point aside, I’m honestly confused; you expressed the exact same concept in different language. How can you claim that that concept is judgemental with one wording and non-judgemental with a different one? You’ve said before that “the onus is always on the person speaking to be clear” so could you please explain what it is that isn’t present in the first message, leaving it non-judgemental, but is in the second one which adds judgement?

          • Arrendis

            What he cannot do is separate what he’s writing from the context of the Presidential office.

            Except he has. The Office of the President of the United States has no official stance on ‘the kind of world I want my daughters to grow up in.’ But please, keep on trying.

            As for what’s not judgmental in the first one, but is judgmental in the second:

            In the first instance, no conclusions are drawn about the answer. ‘Are they objecting because of X or Y?’ In the second, there are: ‘Are they objecting because of X, or because they are (insert insulting conclusions).”

            What you’re proposing is that the very question ‘what are your motives in doing this?’ in and of itself assumes a specific answer. And it doesn’t. But the very fact that you read that into the question does carry implications.

          • Just a Decoy

            I don’t seem to be making my point clear to you, so I’ll try again.

            My point isn’t “anything he does is an official act as the US President” – when he writes something as “Barack Obama, father” it doesn’t automatically become US Policy or a Presidential decree just because he’s also “Barack Obama, US President” at the same time.

            My point is that whatever he writes, the rest of the world will look at it in the context of his being the president, even if that’s not the context he writes it in. If, for example, he’d written that the world he wants his daughters to grow up in was one with a unified Israeli state, that piece would have an affect on the US diplomatic relations with Israel and Palestine because it had been written by the US president, even though Barack Obama wasn’t writing it as the President.

            That’s what I’m talking about when I say he can’t separate his writing, or the actions of his private life, from the context of the Presidential office.

            As for the question of judgemental questions, you inserted conclusions in the original question as well, which was why I originally called you out for making implications. Read it again:
            “Or are the folks here who are mocking Asher for a legitimate concern* giving everyone else a pass, and just finding a reason to hit Asher because they don’t like who he flies for?” (emphasis mine)

            How is that different from “or because they are (insert insulting conclusions)”?

    • JZ909

      The reason station trading is ok is because nothing (or very little with taxes and fees) is gained or lost, it is simply traded. Ratting adds ISK to the game, which causes ISK to lose value, which is also known as inflation. Mission running also adds ISK to the game, but it mitigates the problem a bit because it also removes some of it through the LP store.

  • GrouchyOldGamer

    CCP please don’t stop grandpa playing Eve, he’ll start touching me again.

  • JZ909

    Nice thought-provoking article! I personally like the concept of the new carriers, but I could see a compromise that gives them an auto aggression button. It wouldn’t be nearly as good as microing, but it would be something.

    That being said, I don’t think the issue is carriers at all. It’s hot-drop mechanics and uncatchable (with the exception of smartbombs) interceptors. Cynos should have a warm up period, and interceptors should be catchable.

    In my opinion, it’s an issue with many parts of the game. Strategies are often too black and white. In low, MWD+cloak means only smartbombs can touch you, without MWD-cloak or an insta-warp ship, and you’re caught every time. There should be more room in the grey area, where no one know exactly how the situation will go down. The carrier change is a small step in that direction by increasing the player skill required to play it well.

  • Niko Lorenzio

    Reposting my comment from Laz’s post on Sindels blog as it’s on the same subject.

    “You’re missing the bigger picture though. It’s not like the minimum you need to rat is so high because that’s the floor. The reason it’s so high because of other people who AFK rat. If everyone had to put in that much more effort into ratting the cost of PVP will go down.
    Currently everyone who doesn’t have the luxury of AFK farming (which is most of EVE BTW) is at a disadvantage. This will balance the game over time and things will settle in fine.”

  • Seraph IX Basarab

    What the actual fuck was this Asher. You rant for half the article about some personal story of you leveling up your Drake, then you talk about how some Chimera is able to stand up to bombers for 3 minutes and lastly you make mention of some 73 year old man and a mom in her 30s ratting in their carriers and how they’ll quit if the right changes aren’t made. So because people can’t afk rat all of 0.0 will die. Yeah ok.

    • Fearlesslittletoaster

      Try reading it again, you missed the important point. His complaint is that unstoppable interceptors remove any way for people to defend their space effectively and CCP is removing one of the last methods to engineer around the problem. You can agree or disagree with that, but that is his overall thesis, and it is not entirely unsupported by his article.


    Since the pve revamp of null sec the plex prices have never been higher and the faction/deadspace loot items have never been lower because of to many items on the market.
    And why is that? Simple , the null changes have made null sec a big carebear paradise there is more carebearing now then there was ever in null sec.
    Adn you complain about the very few dudes trying to catch you ?
    Man, catching ratter in interceptors is far from easy, you need to be realy skilled to do it.
    And thanks to the uncounterable intell wich is local and intell channels wich even send automaticly warnings to the players in the area , it is extreemly hard to catch people.
    Please tell me how to counterplay the intellchannels!
    I dare even say that without inty’s you can’t catch anyone.

    What bullshit this article is.

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  • Joe

    I agree that there should be some things for casual players. But I am not convinced carrier ratting in null sec must be the answer. I am in null sec and ratting in a vexor navy issue works fine. It even works when your system is cloaky camped. Even if you lose a couple it’s not so bad because they are cheap.

    Maybe they can try that.

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  • Mitch Taylor

    For just a small donation, you can save a ‘carrier ratter’. Text FARMINE to 832332. *100% of your charges go to the charity in question