Encounters with the Reddit Hive Mind


Today, we have a guest piece from Goonswarm Federation director Schwa. An active member of the #tweetfleet community, Schwa shares his recent experience, and personal opinion, of the quality of debate on /r/eve. – Niden

I vacillated quite a bit when debating whether or not I should even write this article. In the end, I realized that the fact that I was even considering holding it back, itself represented a symptom of the problem. The title itself carries a twinge of irony with it, and leaves itself open for bee jokes. There’s a legitimate fear that when this is published, it will be immediately written off as the petty whining of the big bad ebil gooniez. Seraph will likely repeat his rather witty joke about my grrsecution complex. And while I am perfectly fine playing the bad guy in a game that not only permits that kind of gameplay, but openly brags about the dark, cold, unforgiving landscape such behavior creates, there exists a large number of people that feel it is illegitimate, and a danger to the game and its community. I obviously don’t share that opinion, but I’m more than happy to have the debate.

Debate is a word whose meaning, I feel, is lost rather often on /r/eve. It’s perfectly fine to troll, shitpost, and generally be a verbally abusive bastard as far as I am concerned. I typically don’t do that myself, as it isn’t really my style, but I enjoy engaging with those that do. Unfortunately, /r/eve has shown itself to be a place where honest debate is not really feasible. Dissenting opinion is downvoted into oblivion, and the discussion stymied. All that is left is the howling echo chamber, whipping itself up into a zealous frenzy demanding the head of The Mittani on a pike.


Until recently I had avoided /r/eve as a matter of pride or principle, futilely hoping that it would not become the source for all Eve discussion — the replacement for Kugutsumen. I had hoped that TMC forums, or some other entity would become the discussion place everyone went to. Mostly my disdain for reddit was phony, built on a reputation I knew was just part of prior war propaganda. I had no legitimate reason to really hate /r/eve. Once the Endie leak hit, I began to engage the /r/eve community. Partly because I wanted to stir the debate, and partly because some of the things I had read were just factually incorrect. I didn’t understand reddit mechanics, and to a large degree I still don’t. I’ve never been one to give a damn about forum reputation, karma whoring, or being a board warrior in general. Most of my public thoughts about Eve happen 140 characters at a time. But what I quickly discovered about reddit is that it is, whether intentionally or not, designed to stifle dissent.

After a couple of Cloud Ring campaign-related threads in which I foolishly engaged with some ridiculous trolls who thought that planting new TCUs meant Pandemic Horde had “held sov” against the odds, I was quickly on the receiving end of a large number of downvotes. At the time, I didn’t give it a second thought. The majority of /r/eve readers hate The Imperium in general, and Goonswarm Federation in particular. My defense of GSF was inevitably going to lead to negative karma.

And then it happened.


In a post about an Imperium fleet getting whitewashed in lowsec, I posted a very conciliatory comment congratulating the enemy in their victory. About 15 minutes later, it was deleted. I didn’t understand why, and members of the community went into a frenzy speculating that I had been ordered to remove the post for not toeing the company line.


At first, I suspected foul play. The lack of Imperium moderators in /r/eve, and a history of deleted Imperium posts, led me to initially suspect that a rogue moderator was abusing his power to stifle anything that might not make Goons look like the horrible assholes some people want to believe we are. After some discussion with /r/eve mods I learned an even worse truth; reddit itself is designed to block posts of those people with negative karma. AutoModerator was the culprit here, blocking my posts due to my negative karma. This is probably something a lot of you already know, but it was a huge surprise to me. The consequences are immediately obvious. If someone posts an opinion that differs from that of the majority, it is downvoted, and eventually squelched. This design eliminates the possibility for /r/eve to ever develop the one thing that made Kugu so much fun – differing opinions.


In order to get around this issue, one has to track down a moderator, and get your posts approved.  There are no mods in The Imperium, and some of the mods are openly hostile to The Imperium. Posts must be approved one at a time. There is no way to get whitelisted. That can make this a challenge. But even getting your posts approved won’t resolve the issue. It turns out that having negative karma also causes your ability to post and reply to comments to be throttled.  Sometimes you must wait ten minutes to reply again – an eternity during a lively discussion.




So, I decided to do a little experiment. I was sitting at -35 comment karma, and I changed my flair from GSF to Dirt N Glitter. Within 2 hours I was at +8 karma. By the next day I was over +30. Posts that were previously posted with GSF flair, and downvoted significantly, suddenly had positive karma. New posts were upvoted. To me, this clearly illustrated how the community is truly not interested in meaningful debate. After getting my karma over +40, I set my flair to “cyno alt,” an innocuous icon of a covert cynosural field generator. Within hours, my karma had dipped into the 20s without a single new post.

So, while my initial disdain for /r/eve was founded on nonsense, it turns out the conclusion was correct. The mechanics of Reddit actively promote groupthink, and /r/eve has a particularly nasty case of mob mentality. The community is even aware of it, and openly mocks it with posts like “Can I hate cfc on a limited time schedule as a solo poster?” So while Eve is notorious, fairly or not, for having a rather caustic community, and /r/eve is also notorious (quite correctly) for being very grr goon, my real concern is that the site itself is designed to promote the worst parts of the community. I’m absolutely fine with a bunch of people being outwardly hostile toward The Imperium. However, I would like the ability to be honest in my replies, and add the flair of my choosing without worrying that my comments will be immediately treated as nothing more than spam.


Tags: debate, reddit, Schwa

About the author


Schwa is a director in Goonswarm Federation, and a notoriously horrible Eve Online player. His accomplishments include losing Ishtars and Rapiers while AFK, watching your move ops, and drunkenly smashing vodka bottles.

  • Niden

    I expect a lot of people to miss the point of this one. Which, in itself, is a bit sad.


      what’s the point

      • Kamar Raimo

        Overly simple automated spamfilters create too many false positives and suck I guess.

      • Afk forum


  • Seraph IX Basarab

    I think the reddit mechanic is kind of shitty too. But the backlash against Goons from reddit community (trigger word, watch out) is self inflicted.

    “I think a bitter concern than the “hive mentality” of reddit, which is a naturally occurring phenomenon, flexible and fickle all the same, is the hive mentality of a particular group which is promoted in a calculated manner for the benefit of a select few.


    Oh and this guy has a point:


    Welp there goes the credibility unfortunately. You had a good run.

    • schwaboy

      I don’t care about karma. I don’t even care if people hate me because I’m a Goon. I think I said that in the article a couple of times. My real complaint, which I thought I quite clearly stated, is that the reddit mechanics make it very difficult to offer dissenting opinion.

      • Seraph IX Basarab

        And that’s not a bad point. But it’s usually better to make an argument from a position of consistency rather than hypocrisy.

        • schwaboy

          I am being consistent. I said in the article that I don’t care if you downvote me for being a goon. Downvote me all day. Just change the mechanics of reddit so I can actually respond.

          • Seraph IX Basarab

            Not getting it. Owell.

          • Ranamar

            I don’t get it either and your link is chopped. What’s the point?

          • So you are more concerned with leadership, whether Reddit or The Mittani and his command group, than with the common poster? Because The Mittani is a douchebag, that means that all members of the Imperium should be silenced by the Reddit mechanic designed to encourage all Reddit users to get along.

            Because if that’s not the point you are trying to make, I don’t get it either.

          • Seraph IX Basarab

            I was saying it’s kind of hypocritical to complain about the bad reddit mechanics…and then make use of them yourself downvoting a guy saying GF.

          • That reply is bizarre.

            Sorry folks, looks like I got taken in by a troll. I’ll leave now.

          • Joe

            I don’t think people are silenced just because they are goons. But if they are trying to defend a douchebag then they may get down-voted.

          • callduron

            Schwa, do you feel people can post dissenting opinions on TMC or in the War Room freely?

          • schwaboy

            Definitely not in TWR, but that’s a private alliance subforum. I see some dissent on TMC, but I’ve not been on the other side of it enough to see what is deleted and why. But the difference there is that reddit has become the sole place for reddit discussion these days, and even a semi-official method for CCP to communicate with the players.

          • Oomphaw

            Maybe ppl are down voting you for being a jerk, i can´t tell, Or in fact down voting you for being a goon, which equals to being a jerk for some historic reasons. This Karma thing looks pretty ridiculous, yes. Deal with it.
            Are you an SA goon “old timer” btw? In case the answer is “yes” you should be aware of the hypocrisy you are showing here.

        • Flacwby

          Aaaaannnndddd, Seraph just lost what little credibility he had left and thus any further posts and blogs from him I can no longer even bother to read.

      • Liner Xiandra

        You’re right though, but I think you expect too much of what reddit can offer you. It’s not a forum.

  • Seraph IX Basarab

    Oh and this guy has a point:


    Welp there goes the credibility unfortunately. You had a good run.

  • Kamar Raimo

    Like you I was unaware of this automoderator mechanic, and to be perfectly frank I think it is beyond objectionable.

    While I would also dismiss any blanket complaints by Goons who lament that they are being persecuted by people who they have harassed, trolled, denigrated and ridiculed over years, I *am* interested in the view from the other side. Especially because it is sometimes very hard to get any view from *inside* a community that is being presented by its leadership as a unified cult-like following.

    Reddit could be the perfect place for “the average Goon” to say their piece and provide insight into what makes them tick, but this mechanic clearly prevents that. There are settings in reddit which allow the user to set whether they want to see downvoted posts or not, and that is fine. Having a mindless mechanic take that decision for me is an insult to my intelligence with its unsolicited paternalistic censorship.

    I would petition the r/eve moderators to turn off that feature.

    • Rob Kaichin

      “Reddit could be the perfect place for “the average Goon” to say their piece and provide insight into what makes them tick, but this mechanic clearly prevents that. ”

      It doesn’t.

      We had a piece by ‘the average Goon’, not too long ago, and the only people clamouring against it were the Goons themselves. A whole series of “once upon a time this evil bastard told off a noob and that was terrible and so everything he says should be ignored” posts leapt out.

      They attracted, as I recall, the downvotes they deserved.

      The most poetic thing? That very Goon can’t post on his own forums.

      The true community, hard eyed realists dedicated to true discussion and hard truths. Hilarious, don’t you think?

    • Bryan Frye

      hahaha well if you we’re not trying at the time to be pretentious asshat, for saying something that vulgar it serves you right. Whether you like or hate the guy, why would a human being say such thing, that all of us know you would not say in person.
      Edit: Cozying up to a one to many beers.

  • Kinis Deren

    Wow, more tears from goon leadership about how unfair everyone (that they can’t control) is treating them – schwaboy, grow up man. If you don’t like /r/eve why don’t you stick to reading the sanitized comment threads on TMdC. maybe that would suit your hive mind more?

    • schwaboy

      It’s like you didn’t even read the article.

      • MikalasG

        ” I’m upset people are being mean to goons and down-voting me but can’t explain my side because grrr reddit mods “

        • schwaboy

          Nope, not at all my complaint. Read it again.

        • Zadan Tyvianne

          he doesn’t care if people hate goons, his problem is with the reddit mechanics that don’t allow him or any other dissenting opinion to be seen on reddit

    • xanderphoena

      Everyone knows my recent thoughts and position on some of GSFs recent actions but for you to post this shows you clearly didn’t read the article and you simply prove Schwa’s point.

      • Kinis Deren

        Not at all – did you check his /r/eve posting history for the context
        for this article? No, I thought not. A little bit of research goes a long way.

        Here, let me show you an example of why schwaboy hit negative karma: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3ufpcg/sorry_sion_you_cant_shake_off_everything/cxel05n?context=3

        See how he tries to disparage the article writer with a throw away “Grrr goon” comment? That’s what gets down votes on reddit and not just /r/eve. Furthermore, he gains more negative rep by salty posts regarding /r/eve automod hiding posts with negative rep claiming that it has been deleted, when a simple account settings change can fix that.

        • schwaboy

          No, a simple account settings change cannot fix it. And automoderator did delete my posts. I had to spysix to manually restore it. I have plenty of posts with negative karma where I am absolutely contributing to the discussion in a positive manner, just in one that is pro-Goon. And again, the negative karma wouldn’t matter to me at all, if it didn’t restrict me from posting.

    • Flacwby

      I can’t even comment on this other than to say “Kinis Deren”, you’re an idiot.

  • Test Dude

    r/Eve could use some more actual debate. I always wondered why the largest coalition in the game struggled to get its opinions across in that format; this partially explains that.

    • Mittens4lyfe

      The largest coalition in the game only has 1 opinion

    • Norrec Lafisques

      The mods are particularly harsh on any comment that sees a swing of upvotes if you have gsf flair. Whereas I’ve watched DIX/DNG flair jump 50 points in 10 minutes and never be removed for vote brigading.

  • JZ909

    Reddit is terrible in a lot of ways, I wish the community would abandon it for something else, like news sites and Disqus 🙂

  • Reddit is Russia

    There was an uprising, if you want to call it that, a while back because Reddit something something. The claims were freedom of speech was taken away from people. Up/down voting, especially that which leads to negative karma ultimately silencing a person is shit. Either Reddit is open or it’s not.

    That said, what’s an alternative? CCP devs sure love Reddit and take input on mechanics, etc… from there. Hell, a lot of Reddit posters don’t even play anymore yet have input.

    Lastly, I can empathize. Simply being in the Imperium at one point or another but not in the actual Goons alliance gets you a lot of heat when posting on their forums. Members are pubbie shittlers to those who are goon goons.

    • Joe

      Good points. Reddit isn’t great. But the mods at EVE-O are really bad as well. They seem to play favorites allowing some people to be nasty to others and post off topic but not others.

      If you go with other private boards like Kugu or failheap then you will just have people banning others for arbitrary reasons. Mittens made a point of banning people who argued against his posts on kugu.

      I think the rules on reddit apply accross reddit it is not just eve and therefor it is not just the mods trying to be anti-goons.

      But yes I think the whole hiding certain views as the default is bad.

  • Niko Lorenzio

    Auto mod sounds like a terrible idea that Goons would come up with. The irony is hilarious.

    • callduron

      I think Mittens, DJ and Sion get too much thrill out of banning dissent from TMC comments to ever wish to automate the process.

      • Verdis deMosays

        Actually we rarely bomb a dissenting comment. Poster PewPew on the disqus for tmc should prove that. We marvel, rant, and leave them there.

        Source: writer for TMC

        • F U Mittens

          Thats a load of B.S. I’ve been banned on tmc at least 15 times. The first few times were for absolutely nothing. Just posting like and normal person. But if there is anything remotely askew of the narrative of goons = BAN

        • Joe

          I would love to see some actual proof of this.

          IMO there is very little poster pew pew on the disqus at tmc.

          And anyway who would want to post anything controversial there when the goons have a reputation for taking their in game beefs out of game into real life and trying to ruin people’s careers?

  • Has /r/eve become more than it should be? Why the hell are people paying attention to a public forum all of a sudden? If I post on there “Send me all your ISK for the good of EVE” will I get a shit ton of ISK? It’s a virtually free, almost anonymous wall of text. Don’t get me wrong, it’s ace, and it has it’s place. But a means to define concrete argument? WTF is wrong with people? /r/eve is, if anything, simply a battlefield. At best it’s a nebulous enemy that the CFC can focus their ire upon, their need for a solidified opponent. Most posts on /r/eve aren’t even about this whole charade. Are we to simply frame our arguments around a small percentage of /r/eve posts? What value does that lend to the arguments?

    I love /r/eve. It’s my first visit of the day.

    Political opponent and succinct summary of opinion it is not. Beware those who validate political aims based upon it’s nature or content.

  • GrouchyOldGamer

    In defence of the eve subreddit, it has some great content about the game – it just appears to be hugely cynical when it comes to groups in Eve that like to portray their ‘meta’ pedigree.

    Without doubt there are shitlords on there who down-vote as some child like protest against slights they receive in-game.

    But, I do think it’s the freest and most honest debate forum about Eve.

    • Falin Whalen

      “Without doubt there are shitlords on there who down-vote as some child like protest against slights they receive in-game.”

      So most of r/Eve then. Got it. I have posted on r/Eve without flair. Posts that subtly dig on Goons get upvoted, posts that rag on r/Eve for being all Grr Goons get downvoted. “The freest most honest debate forum about Eve,” if you drink the kool-aid, join the hive mind, and repeat Grr Goons constantly.

      • GrouchyOldGamer

        Please point out where I’m ‘grrr goons’

  • Liner Xiandra

    You’re correct in how reddit mechanics are nipping any unpopular opinion in the bud, leaving you with a certain group-think from the masses.

    However, that’s the nature of the platform. It’s very much suited to bring you news and updates that are relevant to its user base. With the anti-goon sentiment, that means you’ll have a hard time getting your point across on it.
    So be it? There are other means to communicate with fellow EVE players.

    You end your article with concerns about the mob-mentality it might create, or bring out the worst of people. Maybe you could clarify your concerns on this?

    From my viewpoint, /r/eve/ shows a caring community that is welcome to pretty much anything and anyone. The Goon mocking is -lets face it- fairly justified if you would tally up their antics old and new. And it’s not like non-goons can offer a rebuttal on SomethingAwful without spending a few dollars to be a member first.

    Switching your flair demonstrated that they’re not all that a bad bunch after all.

    • schwaboy

      I agree that it’s great as a content aggregator. And I don’t have a problem with /r/eve being generally grr goon. In fact I kind of enjoy it sometimes. I like a good internet argument. I just wish it didn’t prevent me from having a good internet argument.

      • Rob Kaichin

        The reason that it stopped you from having a good argument, was because your arguments were judged unworthy.

        That’s what the downvote means. It means that your post(s) were not of sufficient quality to attract upvotes. They didn’t contribute to the discussion.

        If, as you say, people were solely downvoting you based on your flair , then there would be no Goons on Reddit . That there are, proves my point.

        • blackhuey

          Your points are only valid in the imaginary world where people on /r/eve obey reddiquette.
          It’s quite possible to be downvoted regularly to oblivion in /r/eve and survive due to karma from other subs that actually follow reddiquette.

          • Rob Kaichin

            “Imaginary world”

            I’m reasonably sure that the majority of people on Reddit, and /r/Eve in particulary, follow Reddiquette.

            “Downvoted regularly”

            All things happen for a reason, sahib. Find wisdom within yourself; the reason shall come unto you.

          • blackhuey

            445/729 karma in /r/eve on my main account. -57 and shadowbanned on my other one, which dared to talk about ganking. Sorry chum, your rose-tinted argument is invalid.
            If you have any opinion that significantly diverges from the hive mind, you have a better chance of being able to defend it on EN24, and that should be a wake up call for reddit.

          • Rob Kaichin

            “which dared to talk about ganking”

            Well, apart from the anecdotal evidence, the main thing here is quality of argument, not quantity.

            Could you link the account, so I could see what you were actually saying?

            In my experience, there’s two types of arguments: there’s the binary wrong/right arguments, and there’s the difference of opinion arguments.

            If you’re arguing that ganking is wrong and should be banned, (#1) then you’re gonna suffer. Ganking is explicitly accepted by CCP.

            If you’re arguing that ganking is overpowered, then you might have a point.

          • blackhuey

            Both our arguments are anecdotal Rob, don’t be dishonest in making your case.

            Whatever my point might be, for or in favour of ganking, according to reddiquette if it contributes to the discussion it shouldn’t be downvoted. For you to suggest that it’s normal for karma to suffer based on the politics of an argument, rather than the quality of it, illustrates my and the OPs point precisely.

            I’m fine with Reddit being a circlejerk, but let’s not pretend it isn’t.

          • Rob Kaichin

            “Moderate based on quality, not opinion. Well written and interesting content can be worthwhile, even if you disagree with it.”


            It isn’t the “politics” of ‘anti-ganking’; it is the in-correctness of the facts within the post. Saying “CCP has never condoned ganking (therefore ban it)” is observably wrong. It thus attracts downvotes.

            Still, I’m not saying Reddit isn’t a circlejerk, I’m saying that most of the people don’t circlejerk. I have my own problems with it, similar to yours.

            USTZ Reddit (which I am unfamiliar with) seems to be far more ‘jerky’ than EUTZ. Many discussions I have had end up -3 or -4 when I check them the day afterwards. This is frustrating because it kills continued debate.

            Groups of in-game affiliated players (who share the same opinions) can stifle commentary which is unfavourable to their position.

            High quality comments, usually corrections, below down-voted posts are hidden, and thus do not improve the quality of discussion.

            Reddit has got a lot less friendly since Kugu was killed/died. I preferred the old /r/Eve with the disinterested mods and the slow-burn nature.

            Reddit isn’t perfect, but it isn’t the “one thought, one mind, one voice” dystopia it is made out to be.

            “Both our arguments are anecdotal Rob, don’t be dishonest in making your case.”

            Well, I’ll try not to be dishonest, and you try not to call me dishonest? 😛

            “I am not a liar” -Richard ‘Rob Kaichin’ Nixon 😛

    • Verdis deMosays

      Also as a junkie of Huey’s “Carebear Type” song, its no mystery where he stands on ganking. A fact which most of reddit seems to have a inability to appreciate.

  • That’s an interesting test you conducted! Reddit is such an annoying venue. It works to an extent in our corp private subreddit because of a very like-minded community but in public subreddits like r/eve, its mechanics definitely hinder diversely opinionated discussion.

  • AFK

    Well this is ironic. Goons have, more than anyone, gone above and beyond playing the “metagame”. Taking the game out of the client. And they have done so for literally a decade. Well sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander too, I’m afraid.

    Get downvoted on your flair? METAGAME.

    Mods in enemy alliances blacklisting you? METAGAME

    Getting your narrative censored? METAGAME.

    Welcome to something called “a taste of your own medicine”.

    • GrouchyOldGamer

      This is a good point, people can’t play the pantomime villain and then moan when they are boo’d.

      Although the core of complaint that reddit’s karma system is a double edged sword is well taken.

      • Chris

        To be fair, what forum can boast an unbiased outlet for debate without serious moderator intervention. And those moderators will of course have their own biases. Exactly. None.

        For what reddit tries to accomplish, I think it usually does a pretty damned good job.

    • schwaboy

      All fair points. But then calling them out for it is also part of the meta game.

  • SeymourB

    OK, all shitposting and grr goons aside.

    So, here’s the thing, man. You belong to a group that has as its very foundation utter contempt for anyone not in your group.

    Your mantra is about how you’re not here to ruin the game, you’re here to ruin OUR game. You constantly tell us that you don’t have to play the game in a way that is fun for anyone else, all that matters is your utter domination of your enemies. It basically boils down to you telling us, “I got mine, Fuck You”.

    At yet, some of your leaders want to make make some cash on the side by
    marketing your group 180 degrees opposite of what you’ve said you were
    about for years. They suddenly want to clean up the image, so it can be marketed better to game company executives and novel authors. So you change your name, and start writing articles about how unfairly we’re treating you, and how terrible we are, how we aren’t a community, etc etc.

    Still, the fact remains that you’ve treated the rest of us like we’re scum for almost 10 years now. Pubbie this, pubbie that. All the years of scamming, ganking, making fun of dead people, mocking 9/11, the Mittani incident with the suicidal guy… basically any way that you could think of to shock people in order to harvest lulz and tearz from other people, while posting it for the world to see while you pointed and laughed at whatever poor soul was your current target.

    What did you expect in return?

    You’re reaping what you’ve sown, and in a place where you just can’t control other people or the flow of information – like you can in so many other arenas… Eve, SA Forums, TMC, etc – now you’re finding out that actions have consequences, and that years of boorish behavior actually does mean something.

    Why does it matter? Because it’s been real, actual human beings on the other side of the monitor all of this time.

    We don’t like it. We never have. I get that Eve is supposed to be harsh, all the ganking and scamming and playing the bad guy was fine – it’s necessary for a compelling game – but you went and took it way past that.

    So, while I might agree that the voting mechanics and auto-moderator functionality are a bit unfair… well, suck it up, buttercup. Life isn’t fair in the sandbox, now is it?

    If you don’t want to be associated with all those years of baggage, then don’t associate yourself with it.

    Your choice. Live with it, either way.

    • Rob Kaichin

      “We don’t like it. We never have. I get that Eve is supposed to be harsh, all the ganking and scamming and playing the bad guy was fine – it’s necessary for a compelling game – but you went and took it way past that.”

      Damn straight.

    • Afk forum

      Seriously, Schwa or some Goon or Something Awful site fellow should answer this guy

      • schwaboy

        I mean, what do you want me to say? People are going to hate GSF because we’ve been so dominant for so long. I understand. And yes, GSF ganks in hisec, and scam people — something very much permitted within game rules. And we aren’t even the best or most prolific scammers.

        But a lot of the rest of the rhetoric is pretty overblown. That whole “we’re not here to ruin the game, we’re here to ruin YOUR game” thing is something Darius JOHNSON said, like 7 years ago. The Mittani has never, to my knowledge, ever actually said that. Nor is it actually GSF policy. People just assume that it is.

        So I could sit here and try to get this guy to stop hating GSF, but there’s no point. People are going to hate us until we collapse, because nobody likes the big dog — especially one that’s been outwardly arrogant. But I’m not asking for anyone to like me, GSF, or The Mittani. I’m just asking to be able to be allowed to respond effectively on reddit when someone spews bullshit directed my way.

        • Xolve

          Pretty sure at this point people are just stirring the pot to rile up Mittens who ‘totally doesn’t care about the untermensch of r/eve’ but for some reason can’t stop posting about them or how they’re ‘the enemy’.

          CFC as an organization did an outstanding job at that whole empire building Civ5 in space thing, but outside of that- their accomplishments are pretty minor. They hold the North, and will for the forseeable future, but everyone else is just as happy to go about their business while the Gurista Menace is kept in check by brave bee warriors.

          • schwaboy

            I don’t think I disagree with any of this.

        • Joe

          Yeah mittani said the whole ruin your game on a podcast. He emphasized it. He also said he thinks eve is horrible and he rarely logs in.
          I do disagree with Seymour in that I don’t think many people dislike goons because of high sec ganks or scams. I don’t mind that and even think some of it is great.
          Most of the dislike comes from them bluing everyone up and playing safe and boring. This has clearly made the game stagnant. As far as “in game” that is about it.
          It’s the out of game stuff and the constant bs that cause most people do dislike mittani/Alex and hold those who blindly follow him in contempt. Until you understand this your posts will continue to miss the mark.

          • schwaboy

            I would love to hear that podcast, because I don’t remember it. Not saying it didn’t happen, I just want to hear it.

            While I can see the argument that having “too many blues” makes things boring and stagnant, wouldn’t it really only make it boring and stagnant for those inside the Imperium? There are still plenty of other people to go blow up.

          • Joe

            It was a few years and I am going by memory. But I think it was interview from lost in eve with Jade.
            As for the rest of your post I think it is a good point. Eve as a whole lacks the press when the largest entities decide to blue up. But the smaller entities can still fight it out and have battles that are indeed existential in gravity.
            The only quibble I would raise is this. There is a bit of a chill on bringing out caps or larger fleets for the smaller entities when the larger entities are sitting around bored and don’t have large problems for the large fleets to solve.

    • Verdis deMosays

      I appreciate your rage against the Goons, but I feel this needs a rebuttal. I have been in nullsec a while now, first with an NC. renter corp, then SMA, then later Karmafleet, so I know some about both sides. I have friends in PL, Provi, and other places. They all troll, they all harass, and they all can be brutal to others as the situation comes up.

      Pandemic Legion has no problem with 3rd partying and trolling everyone else’s wars, yet no one complains about them like they do goons.

      The problem isn’t the nature of the Goomswarm, or even Mittens, its the nature of envy. What goons have is a charismatic organizer who is capable of herding cats and motivating line monkeys to do what is needed. If PL or NC. had that nature and drive, they would be the rulers of eve. Then it would be grrNCdot and grrPL, and they would be getting the down votes.

      The automoderator on reddit does seem to be a problem, as the OP’s experiment proves quite well. A system to quash opinions that the people don’t want to see, valid or not, is a xenophobe’s wet dream. So you get the insular, mentally strait jacketed, mindset of the average reddit user. To me that is a problem, and can only result in problems. But don’t ask me, ask TEST and other reddit based groups.

      • Komi

        “the problem isn’t the nature of the Goomswarm, or even Mittens, its the
        nature of envy. What goons have is a charismatic organizer who is
        capable of herding cats and motivating line monkeys to do what is
        needed. If PL or NC. had that nature and drive, they would be the rulers
        of eve. Then it would be grrNCdot and grrPL, and they would be getting
        the down votes”

        Envy?? Little to noone envies cfc “charismatic organizer” Im not exactly sure that the cfc has much to be proud of these days. Most of people dont really care about you, its just entertaining to make fun of you, people are not scared of GS, CFC is not seen as a superpower, its a empire of farmers and their pets. Calling cfc a imperium is laughable, cfc doesnt rule eve, cfc didnt win eve, its hardly relevant, just really trying to.

        • Joe

          That isn’t the narrative mittens keeps feeding them. They keep repeating Mittanis narrative that they are the bad boys of eve. They really can’t seem to break the spell.

      • Joe

        Mittani is good at manipulating young college age kids who would be inclined to play internet spaceships.
        Why do you assume the ops opinions were valid? He and you just assume that the only reason to dislike a post with goon flair is because of bias. Of course that is the purpose of your “grr goon” mantra. Avoid the real issue and just assume is someone doesn’t like mittani or what the imperium is doing by bluing up all of null sec and making it stagnant – well they must just be biased.

  • Darrin Assinger

    Goons are reaping what they sow.I don’t understand the tears. You don’t want to be called a troll and automatically down voted don’t be a goon. Fly the goon flag and get shit on… you should be happy it plays into your narrative that everybody hates you and is out to get you. Although it looks like its not just your narrative any more.That’s probably the main issue though isn’t it? you no longer have control over your own story now do you?.

    • schwaboy

      I don’t mind being shit on, I just want to be able to throw the feces back at the monkey.

  • Rob Kaichin

    Question: does Auto-moderator crush dissent and limit ‘real discussion’?

    Answer: No. Discussion is in no way inhibited by AutoModerator.

    Unless you’re regularly attracting large amounts of downvotes, with no compensating upvotes, AutoModerator isn’t a problem.

    So, really the question should be:

    Does Auto-Moderator impact on the actions of people dedicated to deliberately lying, trolling, or simply non-contributing to the discussion?

    Answer: Yes. That is what it is there to do.

    So, the next question is; Do all Goonswarm flaired players represent the above deescription?

    Answer: Some of them, certainly. Do all of them? No. Endie (/u/EndiePosts) and /u/JustAnotherShitpostr (Ingame ID unknown) are both GSF players that contribute to the discussion regularly, and have the upvotes to prove it!

    Furthermore, in this thread, people have real discussions. Yes, there are sections where Goonswarm members are downvoted, most notable Asher. It must be pointed out that Asher was spinning (essentially denying the truth) as hard as he could.


    Should we promote spin above truth? That’s up for the community to decide, but it seems like they dislike it.

    If anyone could tell me how to insert a URL, it’d be much appreciated.

  • Talvorian Dex

    I’m increasingly of the opinion that Goons pretty much deserve whatever animosity they get because of the narrative they’ve fostered over the past several years.

    However, I only apply that to the group, not individuals within that group. I had previously had little insight into how reddit works, but what you’re describing is certainly a problem. No one should be treated like that, regardless of their flair.

  • NoobNoob

    sorry but you are so wrong, i have been using gsf flair for the past year, my posts rarely get downvoted. Maybe don’t be a bootlicker and you will get the sweet sweet reddit kama?

  • blackhuey

    If you think posting with Imperium flair is bad, try posting anything positive about CODE or James 315.

  • lowrads

    Reddit has a bottom up immune system. If you want to see top down versions, see the SA or official EVE forums.

  • Voxx

    I agree with you that reddit severely lends itself to group think. Spending any time on the “default” sub-reddits will lead anyone to the same conclusion.

    But /r/eve being notorioulsy grr goons might be a bit of stretch. It is certainly that way right now as thats the direction that the “Hive-mind” has gravitated towards. 2-3 months ago r/eve was filled with MOA jokes without a grr goons post in sight. For the first half of the year the sub was filled with all the BNI fueled drama. At one point PL were the enemies, prompting me to change my flair as people found it easier to attack my alliance rather than my comments.

    In 3-4 months /r/eve will latch onto some new drama and much of today’s “grr goons” will be mostly forgotten with some kind of kick starter joke every now and again.

    • schwaboy

      There’s actually a really good example of /r/eve’s anti-Goon agenda. There was the recent charity event for the titan kill. The Imperium showed up to it with supers, and made a huge mess. We wound up donating a lot of isk to the event as well. Reddit lost its collective mind about it.

      Cut to a week later, there are stories about the backend drama with how the organizers got screwed by this “Evil At Work” group or whatever. Actual real scandal. Nary a whisper on reddit.

  • Chris

    A bit late but

    “Until recently I had avoided /r/eve as a
    matter of pride or principle, futilely hoping that it would not become
    the source for all Eve discussion — the replacement for Kugutsumen. I
    had hoped that TMC forums”

    Oh my god. That really had me laughing irl.

  • Stop having shit opinions lmao

  • schwaboy

    I found an archived reddit post that explains one of my points, but without any Eve context to blur the conversation. Maybe this will help some people understand it.


  • Joe

    I think redditt has problems just like any format. Yes its silly the way they hide downvoting
    views. But I think the problem may be
    people don’t understand your not supposed to downvote what you disagree with
    but only if it is off topic. But
    honestly I am not sure of that rule.
    Because you can upvote views you agree with right? Why not downvote ones you disagree with? And how would something be controversial if
    no one should down vote it unless it was off topic?

    Of course you might think Kugu had problems if you were
    banned from posting there by the mittani.

    At least from my perspective when you say ” Most of my
    public thoughts about Eve happen 140 characters at a time.” That tells me there is probably not very much
    depth to your thoughts. I am not saying
    I write off your views just because you use twitter but it’s odd to complain
    about the quality of debate on reddit and at the same time seem to endorse

    The same is true when you say I need to post in 9
    minutes. Really? Hell I have a problem with reddit because
    people do an ama and it ends after 4 hours.
    I dont’ get it. Don’t people have
    lives? How would you assume someone is
    going to be on reddit eve right then?
    And who is going to spend 4 hours refreshing reddit eve to see if any
    new questions were asked for 4 hours?
    Why not just let people ask questions and come back the next day or even
    the next week? Whats the urgency?

    These are problems with many of the discussions. And yes no one will likely see this comment
    because it posted a few days after the article.

    But you posted something like this on reddit. And I think your hidden assumption is that
    people aren’t justified in disliking mittani or goons or those who want
    everyone to join a large blue ratting coalition. That is the hidden assumption in “grr
    goons.” You don’t actually address
    the problems with what mittani or sion says.
    Just say grr- goons. And you seem
    to think that people rejecting their views must be due to bias.

    The other thing is you seem to buy into mittani’s narrative
    that goons are the bad boys of eve. But
    I think most redditors see them as a farming community. People don’t like Mittani because of what he
    says not because of what he does in game.
    Now the one exception to that might be how null sec has been so dull
    because of the way he leads his coalition. If BOB would have decided to blue
    everyone around them and form a large ratting community eve would not have had
    the great wars we hope to have again.

    Look at the last ama from a goon skymarshall on reddit. I think allot of redditors were trying very
    hard to be positive with him. But when
    he was asked about issues that redditors really don’t like about mittani or
    imperium he dodged the questions. Here are the types of questions he dodged:

    Do you think imperium bluing so many people is good for the

    Do you think it has contributed to stagnation in null sec
    over the last few years?

    What do you think about goons threatening people’s real life
    careers due to in game decsions?

    Don’t you agree Mittani is silly for saying it’s all my
    fault and then going on for paragraphs blaming other people? Are you at least open to the possibility that
    this is indeed a real character flaw?

    Do you really think Mittani was lead by a group of experts
    regarding the kickstarter against his better judgment? Who are these experts?

    Do you really buy that the cloud ring war had to be fought
    to save the imperiums existence?

    I could go on and on but I mean is everyone who finds
    mittani to be a boor just “grr goons”?
    So yeah when you post with “goon flair” without ever addressing the
    actual reasons people don’t like them, people will think you are just

    One goon who I respect is Dirk McGirk. What I find interesting is after one of
    mittanis goonions he tries to justify it by saying well he must be trying to
    appeal to new players. In other words he
    admits what he says sounds silly to him but refused to just face the truth that
    what he says is just a bunch of bs.

    For many players who have heard his same shtick for years
    Mittani is very much that character that makes you groan every time he is on
    camera and detracts from the movie. Sort
    of the Jar Jar Binks of eve.

  • dragonstalking

    reddit has always had shit mechanics, but if you don’t offer a reasonable place to have LIGHTLY-moderated discussion (SMH at you TMC/SA), there’s no other choice but to join one circlejerk or another

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