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Dailies in EVE: A Design Challenge

 

While the war continues to stumble onward, and with both Fanfest and the Citadel release behind us, things have started to die down a little. The news cycle has entered into a slower period than even two weeks ago, making this the perfect time for more sober reflection of the future, and our path towards it.

Just prior to Fanfest CCP Rise revealed the plans for daily rewards to come to EVE Online. This has been met with passionate mixed responses, leaning heavily towards negative. I even wrote an article lambasting the idea, calling it a “Tribute to Bad Design”. However, through all of the knee-jerk responses and impassioned fighting, many people have lost sight of what is really important: this is not an argument about whether dailies should come to EVE, only a question of how.

Since my article, CCP Rise has posted his own follow-up. He directly counters my comparison to the Tribute system, explaining this is an entirely new variant, with new design goals. He then goes on to explain what exactly those goals are: the principal challenge being that logging in frequently to update the skill plan has been removed with the introduction of the endless skill queue. He also clarified this position, and expanded upon it in his Game Design Panel at Fanfest.

Arguing the Wrong Problem

the goal is to get people to do what they otherwise wouldn’t be doing, for some reward

Given this information, we can see that arguing that there should never be dailies in EVE is a fruitless endeavour. The issue of the need for dailies has nothing to do with people “wanting” it as a feature. It is, in a very real way, medicine. As a feature, the goal is to get people to do what they otherwise wouldn’t be doing, for some reward. There is no way to design the feature to not feel like work to someone, but that is also it’s problem. People logging in and doing things is both something players do to get value out of the game, but also a way for players to be value for CCP and EVE by being part of New Eden for everyone else.

Additionally, data has shown that if you create a very simple task such as “shoot one rat” or even just “log in”, it will result in higher player interaction even outside of these simple activities. For example, in many F2P games you’re rewarded for simply opening the application, however it still benefits the company, and the community, because a large number of people who log in simply for the reward will go on to do other activities.

Another argument that was brought up by many people, including myself, is the simplicity of the program. My fear was that rewards are the very definition of a slippery slope, and you risk devaluing SP, as well as limiting design space in the future. While I do believe this is still possible, the Fanfest presentation seemed to suggest that the plan as described would be a short lived one, perhaps tied to an event, so as to collect additional data.

So dailies are the bitter pill that people don’t want, but ends up benefiting everyone overall by their existence, not just because of the direct reward, but the indirect reward of having a more active player base. Given all of that, it is clear why CCP did not ask us “should there be dailies”, but instead the question of “how”.

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Points and Counterpoints

if we can get them to log in, they have a high chance of becoming engaged

With all of that out of the way, we can set to the task of looking at the possible design space. All good design starts with a problem to be solved. In this case we know of one problem: the need for people to log in more frequently, because we assume that if we can get them to log in, they have a high chance of becoming engaged, and having a fulfilling session of the game.

We have the additional problem that EVE Online players don’t like being told what they have to do, so the solution has to be as generic as possible.

On top of that, there is the issue of relative value in EVE. You cannot just give them ISK, or other in game currencies, as that may not have the same value, and also could disrupt other systems.

We have the additional problem of throughput constraint in terms of development time. We can assume this is not priority one, and thus a system that requires less development has a better chance of seeing fruition.

However there are counters to some of these.

Psychologically, people are more malleable when they are happier. If you can make the daily log in process a game in itself, people are more likely to be performing the action for something exciting, priming them for a more enjoyable game session overall.

Another problem with EVE is a complete lack of direction. While some may opt to not do particular tasks, by having various tasks eligible, and by rotating/randomly selecting which tasks get rewarded in a day, you could encourage people to seek out the real depth of EVE. Although, because of players aversion to some tasks like mining, perhaps multiple options per day is best.

Most good daily reward systems, or loyalty systems as they are often called, have a variety of rewards, from regular currency, to premium currency, to cosmetic items only acquirable through certain levels of loyalty.

Finally, throughput constraints, while a consideration, only should impact how you develop a feature, and not be used as an excuse to build a poorly formed one.

What Can We Learn

The goal of a daily reward is turn the chore of forcing someone to do something they don’t already plan on doing (logging in when they otherwise wouldn’t) into something to look forward to. There are two things that many good daily systems do, that CCP would be smart to learn from.

  • Daily systems that build up are better than those who don’t. I addressed this in my previous piece, most reward systems start relatively small for a single day, but rapidly build up. Some track things in smaller increments such as days per week, where the biggest prize is for those who manage to keep going the entire week, others function on longer term reward systems where every month includes increasing rewards. It is worth noting that the former is generally seen in competitive games, or other games where other players’ participation is required for a good game, and the later generally shows up in MMOs (in particular subscription MMOs).
  • Daily systems that are based on randomness are generally more favorable than those that are not.

However, thanks to throughput constraint, we can’t just build a system that has all of this already built in. Many game put a disproportionate amount of the design and implementation to their daily systems, and not always with great effect. However there is one company that has built this into each of their games, and is currently adding it into their biggest franchise.

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Go Back to WoW

Regardless of what you think about Blizzard games, or Blizzard itself, there is something that is true about them: they have poured a lot of time, and money, into solving some of the same kinds of problems EVE has, especially this one. Additionally, while much of the themepark nature of World of Warcraft doesn’t cross over nicely into EVE, player retention, and player engagement is the kind of problem that is universal among all of MMOs. Furthermore, Blizzard has had a lot of opportunities to iterate upon their systems, with four IPs, five monetization methods, four genres, and millions of fans, they have been able to work on the puzzle of how to deal with dailies. In fact, the term “dailies” is derived from WoW daily quests, and while many EVE players remember daily quests with a lack of fondness, Blizzard has been busy fixing their problems, and may have stumbled upon our perfect solution.

If you REALLY don’t want to read about World of Warcraft, you can skip to the next section for the proposal for EVE.

A History of WoW Dailies

To fully understand the new daily system of WoW: Legion you must first understand where dailies came from. Dating back to WoW’s first expansion, Blizzard needed the ability to have an “end game” PvE questing area. However, at the time most quests were one-shot events. You go to the guy, get your quest, do it, and then turn it in. They had several hubs of quests that recurred every day, but mostly were for side rewards, and were functionally grinds to cosmetic gear. In the end they created the Isle of Quel’danas, a quest hub whose quests reset every day, and whose rewards were quite powerful. Not only did it become the defacto place for players to earn their gold, and work up the gear for other content, it also became a PvP wonderland for those so inclined. And the dailies system was born.

The Isle of Quel’danas was a huge success, and cemented dailies as a staple in WoW for years to come. The following expansion saw a greater work in with daily rewards, however, mostly they followed the reputation grind. A big reason this happened was a growing dislike for PvP and PvE to be forcibly placed together (a problem EVE doesn’t have), and so the PvP content was held in one area, and the dailies were in others. By this time, dailies had shifted from being a list of quests, like any other, that could be performed every day (go capture a dragon, kill 10 dudes, etc) and became more about pointing people to things to do; ‘dungeon of the day’, and rotating quests for professions for example.

Mists of Pandaria, WoW’s third expansion, saw the explosion of daily quests. The focus of the expansion was to give players many things to do at maximum levels, and daily quests were used for most of it. However, many people were unhappy about how spread out, and disconnected many of the quests were, and by this point the player base was tired of “reputation grinds”. It was clear the system would need changing once again.

By the time of Warlords, the latest WoW expansion, most of the daily activities had become centered around a player owned fort, known as the “garrison”. Your garrison is customizable, and offers around 20 minutes to two hours of content a day in the form of repeated tasks, random assignments, and followers to fiddle with. Overall, the garrison became more popular than the normal dailies ever were, however, eventually the repetition had become stale and the daily quest system was abandoned altogether.

So now Blizzard has combined their long history with dailies, the success of the garrisons, with the lessons learned through Hearthstone, and Heroes of the Storm’s daily quests (which are implemented quite a bit differently), to build the new World Quest system.

With World Quests, you have Emissaries from various groups who come to your new garrison, now called the “Order Hall”. Once a day, a new Emissary will show up and offer you a quest. This quest will be something that furthers that factions goals, and will send you to far flung corners of the world. The rewards are random, and are not simply gold. Blizzard has been introducing hundreds of pets, trinkets, and other shiny things to put in as rewards, and while some emissaries may have the more desirable loot, each is consistent with the organization they represent.

There are a lot of things that work about this new system. Emissaries who are not dealt with will wander off eventually, but only after several days. All one needs to do is log in about once a week and knock out the missions. Alternatively they may cherry pick, deciding which factions to work for, and what stories to forward. Additionally, there is good reason to log in daily to check in on what kinds of quests are available. Finally and most importantly, this is dailies without feeling like dailies. Others can come to you and beg your assistance and it is up to you if their requests are beneath you.

The Third Empyrean Age

Mission 9a Low

I spoke once before how we are entering into a Third Empyrean Age. This term is more true than ever. For years agents have waited for us to come to them for missions, however with the huge success of Upwell’s “Operation Frostline” factions across New Eden are interested in working with Capsuleers to forward their objectives.

As long as you are in a station or Citadel with a corporate office, you can now access a new interface, brought to you by Impetus. This interface will allow for faction representatives to contact you directly. Once a day a new message will appear in the interface by an agent of a NPC faction. That NPC will offer you a task to perform that is consistent with the faction. For example SOE may ask you to do a data or relic site, whereas Blood Raiders may ask you to bring them a corpse of a fellow Empyrean. Whichever the task, you will be given a reward related to that faction on completion. These rewards could be SKINs, ISK, standings, LP, SP (for the coveted SoCT missions), and any number of other things.

an engaging journey into New Eden’s factions

Faction agents will only last for five days, allowing them to build up, and which representatives come to you will be based on your standings with their faction. Additionally, standings could be gained or lost based on which tasks are taken. Tasks should be simple, but there is no reason to ensure they are reasonable for all people. As standings increase, and tasks are completed, more difficult and rewarding tasks could be unlocked. Eventually the tasks will mold themselves to the player as they choose to support factions that support their play styles and interests. Also, given quests come from a pool on the server, CCP could add new variants, or have tasks support the ongoing story of the universe. Not only will this transform the daily system into an engaging journey into New Eden’s factions, but also allow for expansion by adding new tasks, and perhaps even allowing alliances to create their own quests for their membership.

Conclusion

Regardless of our feelings about dailies, the problems that they intend to solve are very real, and so cries to not implement them in EVE likely to go unheard. However, there are ways to solve the puzzle. This is just one of several possible style systems, and obviously this is still a super high-level idea. The most important thing is for EVE to continue to reinvent itself, and stay relevant with modern game design, all the while staying fundamentally EVE.

 

Tags: Ashterothi, dailies

About the author

Ashterothi

Ashterothi has spent the last five years learning and teaching EVE Online. He is a host on the highly successful High Drag and Hydrostatic Podcast.

  • Marco Vujević

    Or you could just give people +1 on all attributes for the median logged in days per week up to +4 and be done with it.

  • luobote kong

    Loyalty SP for continuous subscribers will be next if they continue to follow Serenity’s footsteps

  • Dorian Reu

    Great Article, Ash

  • I think that the SP rate is fine. It wouldn’t really work if it scaled with long term trends. The SP farm is real folks, there is bulk money to be made stripping your characters down in SP and focussing them on the important things in life. While I personally prefer the habit of having only 1 toon so I can do anything I want with him/her/it and therefore concentrate SP on that character I certainly can’t knock the idea of buying a couple of indy toons at one degree of effectiveness or another and filling them up with a couple of injectors.

    The concept of dailies on its own probably wouldn’t be enough to make me more active than I already am on a regular day – however – it might be enough to get me in space on the days I might otherwise just watch videos on youtube.
    “The goal of a daily reward is turn the chore of forcing someone to do something they don’t already plan on doing (logging in when they otherwise wouldn’t) into something to look forward to.” <— article author.

    I believe Rise and his team have already covered most of my personal motivations. A few extra hours worth of SP per day for a moments work? yeah, I'll take that. Warp to belt @100km with naga, instalock and kill the first frigate I see, warp back to station and dock. It's that easy.

  • Sanaret

    I don’t give a fuck about loyalty points or skins. And I sure as fuck am not interested in running missions. Neither am I enticed by a lottery. A lottery of 75% crap I don’t care about is not going to get me to log in more. I think you raise a few good ideas, like the rewards stacking up to a limit over a week (you don’t have to log in *every* day but at least every week to binge). But as for the content of the rewards, I haven’t heard anything that would entice me except SP you can count on. Marco’s idea for an attribute boost is a good alternative take on SP boosts.

  • Bill Bones

    In terms of cost effectivenes, it would achieve the same goal in a simpler way if CCP just added new Missions with each patch/expansion. The will to test them, enjoy their rewards and “roadmap” them would drive players into loggin in more and play more to get them from the random pool… and all in all, PvErs seriously need love by giving them exactly the sam they’re payign for: rescue the damsel. Not Burner missions, not events, no Drifter sh*t but MISSIONS. Roadmapable, farmable, predictable MISSIONS. Preferably reflecting the assets and lore elements incorporated to the game since the last batch of Missions was added 5 years ago. Or maybe was 6 years ago…?

  • Niden

    I am not a fan of dailies at all, like most of you. However, as Ash does point out, that’s not really relevant. I am, however, a fan of player retention and interaction. Dailies have a proven positive effect on these things. So in the end it doesn’t matter how I feel about it. Suffering dailies is a small price to pay if it means a positive growth in players and a strengthened interaction between existing players. Assuming the above logic is true, it’s a price I’m willing to pay.

  • Ron Peppers

    3.5m SP per account, per year. The hysteria has been absurd.

    • darkfall13

      “If this goes well we hope to expand in several ways, but more on that later!” So it’s not out of the realm of possibilities to have more dailies. So what’s the limit?

      • Ron Peppers

        You would imagine it’ll be equally negligble amounts of LP, Isk, Aurum, clothing, BPCs, etc, etc, the exact same stuff they’re already giving away in these Operation Frostline whatevers. The direction of travel seems pretty straightforward, a small amount of SP is the perfect way to kickoff because it’s equally valuable to everyone.

        There is literally nothing even vaguely hinted at that’s been worth this level of drama.

    • Daniel Plain

      that’s roughly 2.5 billion ISK at current prices. it’s also about two months of training time.

      • Jare

        Oh noes! Two days of eve worth of isk!?!

        • Daniel Plain

          not everyone can or wants to waste two days of their lives and their sanity to mindless grind.

          • Jare

            Lol I spend half my time pvping, no 1billion is about 45min of setting courier contracts and listing orders, 20min of PI, and some ratting, mining, or exploration just for the fuck of it. Then I go whelp faction ships for the hell of it. Just because you suck at isk doesn’t mean i do

          • Daniel Plain

            and here we are, the mandatory penis waving. listen here, donald. no one cares about your daily routine or your massive wang/business. this is not about you, this is about EVE. and as i have stated before, for the average player, 2bil is a big amount of money.

            (on a side note, you’re talking to a trillionaire. i’m only throwing this in so you will shut the fuck up about how rich and great you are.)

          • Jare

            My point was not that my dick is big, it was that isk is easy as hell to come by and people who say that 1bil is a lot are noobs or never bothered/don’t care about finding their isk fountain

          • Daniel Plain

            so CCP should not take their money and instead concentrate only on you, the god king of EVE?

          • Jare

            Well that would be nice…. 😉 but I don’t remember saying that

          • Daniel Plain

            that is the logical conclusion from what you said. you justify dailies with 2b being a tiny amount of money, which is true only for you and a few others. the rest of the population are bribed, or let’s say strongly encouraged to log in every day (which is the express purpose of this change btw.), even if is is detrimental to their enjoyment of the game and their daily lives, and will inevitably lead to burn-out and/or exodus to other games that are more enjoyable.

      • Ron Peppers

        And so therefore what would have taken you six years to learn will now take you five. It’s not exactly earthshaking.

  • Daniel Plain

    the idea that dailies are somehow “necessary” is cancerous in itself. i don’t know who first came up with it but whoever it was should be strangled. the fact of the matter is that it’s a band-aid fix for a game that just isn’t fun enough to have players log in daily. moreover, most players and especially most EVE players do not want to play every day, and that’s a good thing because it means less burnout and a more responsible and balanced life style.

    bribing players into logging in daily is just some more corporate bullshit shoved down the consumers’ throats and it’s sad to see EVE surrendering to this toxic practice.

    • Jare

      While I’m not sure whether I want dailies in Eve, it is no more cancerous than missions (which I never run cuz they are crap), but you still have the option to not participate, and do without the rewards. You could say that is unfair to people who don’t do them, it is no more unfair than the fact that I don’t get payouts from missions I don’t do

      • So much this. If you don’t want to do dailies you can just ignore them, like most players of most mmos ignore most of the play options on a given day. The amount of anger over this is ridiculous. I’m happy that CCP is looking at ways to motivate people to log in. I may not like dailies, but it isn’t like dailies will break anything.

        • Daniel Plain

          most players in most other MMOs don’t have to do dailies to finance their PvP habit. in EVE, being rich is a goal in itself for many people, and the rest still mostly farm something to stay afloat. with the amount of SP proposed by CCP, you would literally get upwards of 100m/hour for typing your password and staring at your login screen. this is probably the one thing more boring than mining and yet it would be one of the most efficient ways of getting ISK.

          and as i have stated repeatedly, the right way of getting people to log in is making a better game, not bribing them with SP. and i won’t even mention those of us who feel left out because they can’t play daily because of other commitments.

      • Daniel Plain

        the difference is that i can do missions whenever i want and that they are arguably still more entertaining than typing your password and staring at the login screen. with most professions in eve, you don’t have to log in every day to be efficient, except surprise! now you do.

        • Jare

          Which is how it should be… the guy willing to login daily should have an advantage

          • Daniel Plain

            why? because he is a failure in real life and has no commitments? or because he is mentally capable enough to remember to type his password once a day? what about the guy who plays the same amount of hours, but only on weekends? and on a side note, which one of the two is more likely to burn out and leave EVE forever?

          • BjamminD

            Why is someone who has an hour a day of free time a failure by comparison to someone who has their whole weekends free? Lol, very full and successful life I’m sure!

          • Daniel Plain

            an hour a day translates to 7 hours, or a sunday afternoon/evening in my book. also, consider addressing the main points of my post, if you can.

          • BjamminD

            My point was neither someone who plays an hour a day or many hours on the weekend should be judged a failure on that basis alone and it was hilariously ignorant for you to suggest otherwise. I personally tend to get a couple of 2 or 3 hour windows on 2 or 3 weeknights….. it has no bearing on the discussion. The example I made about attending stratops is my answer to the remainder of your point, there is a value to consistent regular attendance versus sporadic but regular attendance but you clearly don’t want to hear that.

          • Daniel Plain

            and i already pointed out how narrow your strat-op argument is given the fact that most of EVE doesn’t participate in those and that the benefit is outweighed by other negative effects.

          • BjamminD

            Yes but there is no point in trying to be concise in an example if a requirement of that example be that it applies to the universal set. I could just describe all of the complexities of EVE and how this change and our discussion applies to them but that would be an absurd task and so for the sake of brevity I use the strat-op example because its a good stand-in example that applies even to those that don’t actually participate in alliance/bloc level conflict.

    • BjamminD

      I think it’s more an issue of recognizing that player critical mass is hugely important to game health. I’m not wild about the idea of dailies but I wouldn’t be against a system like the one described in this article. Just sounds like a more interactive version of the current mission system than an alternative to dailies.

      My biggest issue is that it’s almost impossible to design a system that can’t be abused in EVE and that doesn’t punish those forced into a somewhat narrow day to day play style while engaged in Bloc wars, as everything should be done to promote them because they are among the best content generators in the game.

      That said; good article and it’s something worth discussing further.

      • Daniel Plain

        artificially inflating critical mass by providing incentives for logging in is like treating cancer with pain pills only. if you have no “critical player mass”, make a better game. if the game is good enough, advertise it better.

        • BjamminD

          I can’t help but feel like your just ignoring the reality of the situation. I’ll give you an example; If every Imperium member logs in on Monday and every MBC member logs in on Tuesday the health of the game is not in question but there is not content generated. By creating an incentive for the to log in at the same time you create the potential for content. I’m using a broad an unrealistic example but the point stands. Its about creating a stable log-in pattern because when people’s play time is synchronized to a greater degree which facilitates the creation of more content. No improvement in the game is sufficient to fix that unless it causes people to stay logged in 23.75/7. When I say critical mass I am referring to a certain number of people from the relevant political entities and forms of gameplay that are required to generate sufficient content for the rest.

          As far as it being like cancer; everything in an online game is designed to make you log in, whether story, mechanics that exploit addictive repetitive gameplay, etc. If you are so sure you know what you don’t want and a game has it, don’t play it. If it makes you play the game it is working by definition…. so I’d say its like treating a sickness with the cure for that sickness, it may have some unpleasant side effects for some people.

          • Daniel Plain

            the reality of the situation is that people don’t want to log in every single day (and that is arguably for the better). to make them want to log in more often, you either improve your game, or bribe them with SP. one is a good thing which will ensure the game’s continued existence, the other is just a band-aid treating the symptoms of an ongoing death spiral (EVE is dying, i know). if you can’t find any other way to get “people from the relevant political entities” to log in, that is a declaration of bankruptcy.

            as for the second paragraph, you literally just told me to go back to WoW. how would that reflect on player numbers? one of the main distinguishing features of EVE is that it leaves players the freedom to play whenever they have time and still be effective. if i wanted to take a week off from work for each new expansion and log in every day to do my dailies, i would just play any other MMO in existence.

          • BjamminD

            Not wanting to log in everyday is not better, having things to do that you have to prioritize over EVE and being able to do them without it significantly impacting your ability to play the game is different. That said, just because an incentive exists that doesn’t mean you have to pursue it. It just means that people who are able to, that need that last piece of motivation, are provided with it. You aren’t losing anything by this change, some people will gain something valuable that they in turn will provide back to the game in the form of valuable content generation. Finally, I am not saying you should play WoW – I’m saying that if a game isn’t enjoyable it isn’t worth playing and your telling me that’s what you want in EVE; a game that is sufficiently unenjoyable to the degree that you don’t feel the need to log in.

          • Daniel Plain

            you are right in saying that i’m not losing anything only if you assume that eve is not competitive in any way. or in other words, in a zero sum system, my opponents’ gains are equivalent to my losses.

            on the WoW topic: there is a crucial difference between wanting to play and wanting to play daily. would you want to eat sushi for lunch every single day for the rest of your life? i certainly hope not.

          • BjamminD

            No, but I don’t get mad at the sushi place for having a frequent customer card that the people who attend every day are able to take greater advantage of then you are.

            Yes EVE is competitive, I just don’t have much sympathy for your butthurt that those who log in every day will be rewarded greater than those that don’t. It should be that way. Logging in more should be a competitive advantage.

          • Daniel Plain

            1. claiming i’m mad or butthurt will not help your argument. it’s cheap, even for an ad hominem.
            2. your frequent customer card analogy is again a false equivalence fallacy, because buying food is not a competitive online game involving space ships.
            3. do you really think that the competitive nature of EVE is best expressed in terms of who is able and willing to type in their password and stare at the log in screen seven or more times a week, instead of actually playing the game?

          • BjamminD

            1. This is an EVE discussion, there are traditions to be maintained.
            2. I used it because you brought up the idea that with saturation even something extremely desirable would lose its attraction, my point was; don’t blame the thing for promoting its use even to the point of saturation. We weren’t discussing the competitive nature with respect to that example.
            3. No, I think the competitive nature of EVE is best expressed in terms of spontaneous player conflict and that any mechanic that creates an uptick in the frequency of that conflict is worth a fair bit of sacrifice for in terms of flexibility of game play and this change does even approach that level of disruption.

          • Jare

            Oh the mandatory eve is dying comment! This is officially a cz comments thread

          • Daniel Plain

            jare uses sarcasm. it’s not very effective. i’ve made my argument. you either address it or insult me. your choice.

    • Jare

      Been logging in for 4 hours daily for 2years while going to school and holding a full time job. Your point is invalid.

      • Jare

        And I should have an advantage because I am willing to do this

        • Daniel Plain

          what about the guy who puts in the same hours, but can’t do it daily? why exactly should you have an advantage over him?

          • Jare

            Erm who plays eve 14hours on Saturday and Sunday?

          • Jare

            Talk about no life

          • Daniel Plain

            i didn’t say it has to be only weekends. and even if, how is that relevant? you demand an extra advantage just because you are able and willing log in every day, all else being equal. explain why.

          • Jare

            Because I am providing more content and making more of an impact on the game. I should have an advantage over someone who only plays 15 hours a week and someone who plays 40 hours a week should have an advantage over me (regardless of what it does to their personal life that is completely irrelevant) Now my original point was that just like missions, you don’t have to do them, but people who do will have, and rightly so, an advantage over people who don’t. I don’t expect to get isk from missions because I don’t do them, and people who don’t do dailies shouldn’t bitch about other people getting justly rewarded.

          • Daniel Plain

            right now you’re only providing content for my amusement, but that’s beside the point. your argument only addresses in game time, not play time distribution. i’ll ask a final time: ALL ELSE being equal, why should you be rewarded for logging in daily.

            as for personal life, it is anything but irrelevant. given a choice between raising their children and playing EVE, how many people would choose the latter?

          • Jare

            Lol no need to be hostile, it is a game we are both obviously passionate about. And you know what, you’re right. Just logging in isn’t something that justifies rewards. It’s the possibility of what you might do after you log. And if you have kids you might as well accept not being on the same field as people without them. Nothing wrong with that

          • Daniel Plain

            can’t say i was expecting that. convincing someone on the internet AND have him admit it… must be some leftover karma from my previous life or something. in any case, kudos to you sir.

          • BjamminD

            Let me turn it around on you; should someone that makes it to every stratop be rewarded by their alliance the same as someone who only shows up two days a week but is online for hours on either side of them?

          • Daniel Plain

            false equivalence fallacy, my friend. CCP is not an alliance and EVE is not a stratop. if EVE was only about stratops, you may have gotten away with it, but then there would be stratops at all times, like battles in world of tanks or any other such game.

          • BjamminD

            It is and it isn’t, I’m trying to show you that there are perspectives other than your own. Just because you can’t see the value in logging in daily as opposed to binge playing on a couple of days in terms of the game’s overall health doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Incentivising players in a way that doesn’t materially effect the economy sounds like a pretty good idea to me. Also, the false equivalence is that almost all alliances reward both parties I described the same (except for those with over 100% SRP), the point still stands – there is a difference between showing up for the same number of hours versus showing up for the most ideal hours (even if they are in fact fewer).

          • Daniel Plain

            i see the value perfectly well, just as i see the value in selling my kidney. what i’m trying to point out is that just like living on one kidney, this change would be detrimental to EVE as a whole.

            and speaking of only seeing one’s own perspective: what percentage of EVE players are even involved in stratops? consider an industrialist with 10 accounts and 0 SP in gunnery, or a market alt, a hauler, a miner, a wormhole dweller. for most of them, daily logins are just an annoying chore with no benefit to either themselves or the game.

          • BjamminD

            But if the industrialist with 10 accounts logs in daily then the pvper gets more targets, because more pvpers are logged in you get more wars which provides the industrialist with more markets. You facilitate all of this by getting them to actually log in. Its all the same regardless of how you play the game, that’s the whole “butterfly effect” CCP likes to talk about.

            The kidney example is false equivalence because the (your) kidney in your example has more value to you than the remuneration you get by selling it (I assume that’s your position from the context). Just because something has value doesn’t mean automatically mean its value is greater than something else which is what I mean when I say, “you can’t see the value,” obviously selling anything means getting some sort of value for it which in turn means it has value, the phrase is a reference to something having greater value than the alternative. Congrats, you’re now one of today’s luck 10,000!

          • Daniel Plain

            staying with the industrialist, the more likely scenarios are that he either bites the bullet and ignores the free SP (being less happy with the game than he was before and more likely to leave), or burns out on having to waste an hour a day typing his passwords and stops playing altogether. this is the long term effect of changes like these that will offset any supposed butterfly effect. (on a side note, who would want to go hunt an industry char in a noob ship anyway?)

            as for the kidney example, my point is exactly that the kidney is more valuable than the reward. same as keeping bullshit like daily quests out of EVE is more valuable than the short uptick of logins, followed by an increased decline. you are way overestimating the supposed butterfly effect while downplaying the negative long-term consequences.

      • Daniel Plain

        so because you can do that, everyone can? also, how healthy do you consider this kind of life style?

  • Bob

    Ugg,i absolute hate your idea of daylies. It is a high sec only idea. It would not work in wh,low sec,null .
    Then ccp current idea is much bether.

  • sasda

    I feel it’s blackmail from CCP, and it makes me want to stop logging on more than it makes me want to log on.
    Aggressing an NPC rat also means logoff timer of 5min. They’re blackmailing you to stay logged on in hopes that one thing leads to the other. But as someone who roams deep null and WH sometimes, it means that this 10k SP daily means 10min of wasting RL time daily to be blackmailed, it sucks.

  • ipvicus

    I’m gonna buck the trend here and say this idea makes the best of what good design philosophy can offer on the subject of dailies. I actually see a lot of potential for advancing the lore of the different factions, and as someone with a casual interest in the RP side of things that appeals to me. There could be a lot of potential in more “faction opportunity” type stuff.

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