CZM-EVE-Pyramid

CZ Minutes: The EVE Pyramid

 

Following Jason Quixos mastodon piece on war decs and Citadels, I had an interesting discussion with a gentleman in the comments section. The topic was originally war decs, on which he stated that he avoided war decs and PvP. He went on to claim that 62% of EVE’s population never engage in PvP and actively avoid it. In his view, CCP’s focus on PvP in general, and specifically with the Citadel expansion, meant the very backbone of EVE (the aforementioned 62%) was withering on the vine and that this was the cause of a supposed decline in players. CCP have given us statistics in the past, but they can be misleading in all manner of ways depending on a myriad of variables.

The gentleman went on to say that he believed that PvP content is only actively pursued by a loud minority at the top of the pyramid, an “elite” if you will. Meanwhile, the foundation of said pyramid is being marginalised all the time in his view, Citadels being a prime example because raised taxes intended to stimulate Citadel use means this people will have to either risk war or simply pay more than someone that is prepared to engage in PvP.

What is your view on the matter? Are we letting the foundation of EVE wither away while CCP listen to a loud minority? Or is it so that the main driver of EVE is and should be PvP, statistics being explained by PvP players engaging in regular PvE simply in order to fund their fighting?

JEFFRAIDER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnkU9GMArCU

Dunk Dinkle: Many make the mistake of believing the large scale PvP activity occurs in isolation the rest of Eve’s population.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Vast amounts of modules and resources are required for the large scale fleet operations to take place. These things come primarily from players focused on PvE and mining as their primary playstyle.

Most null sec group doctrines routinely involve use of faction and deadspace modules.  These items are ground out by players doing PvE or in faction warfare farming of LP in typically low or no PvP situations.  The enormous amounts of raw materials needed primarily come from high sec mining. The T2 and T3 components come from cadres of industrialist spending time in POSes running reactions, not FCs running roams.

Large scale conflict drives much for the market that the rest of Eve deals with on a daily basis.  The Blue Donut leads to a poor market for everyone.

The introduction of Citadels and eventual removing of older Starbases will affect almost all players and stimulate new opportunities for most playstyles.  

CCP could take the PvP mentality too far and start to eliminate NPC stations and corps in an attempt to push more into PvP conflict.  This would be a mistake. Room needs to be left for players that aren’t interested in constant PvP to still play the game without feeling harassed.  The current War Dec system is broken at a fundamental level, leading to shitclows camping market hubs engaing in what some would mistakenly call PvP.

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Niden: Although what Dunk says is true – PvP and PvE have a symbiotic relationship and I daresay more time is sunk into PvE than PvP – I don’t think it gets to the heart of the matter. Allow me to explain.

Just today I took my alt via gates from the heart of northern lowsec to Jita to buy needed hardware for the weekend’s fleets. This happens every time I do this: I am always amazed at the amount of people that are crammed into highsec. Literally as soon as one steps from lowsec to highsec, it’s crowded. Again I came to the realisation that I have no idea what these people do, beyond a vague idea of missions and industry. I don’t know who they are, I don’t recognise their corporations or alliances, it’s all just a grey mass of unknown to me.

My own understanding of the balance between PvP and highsec PvE tells me that people who play EVE for the PvP in lowsec and nullsec also often have alts grinding away in highsec for ISK, be it literally PvE, or industry and trade. But that’s about where my understanding ends because I spend about 1% of my time in highsec and 0% of my time doing PvE, industry or trade.

“For me, EVE is about three things: PvP, narrative, and community”

For me, EVE is about three things: PvP, narrative, and community – a sentiment that a lot of the people I interact with in the community share. So it is quite possible that the loudest group of people (a minority even) in the community are people like me and that this projects an unfair image of the player base. I am certainly dependant on people engaging in PvE and industry, but I am quite frankly unaware of how this source of nourishment works. Kind of like taking clean water on tap for granted.

So yes, I worry that what the aforementioned gentleman was complaining about has a kernel of truth, and that I am simply ignorant of it. Not only ignorant, but try as I might, it does not interest me, even though I depend on it. Indeed, I am open to the idea that CCP depend on it for a, if not majority, considerable amount of the subscriptions to EVE Online. I simply do not know, and it worries me that the EVE I enjoy is a luxury on the backs of others – of which I, and mayhaps even CCP to an extent, am ignorant to.

Citadel_construction

Sanders Schmittlaub: I agree that there are certain problems with the mindset of the vocal minority in EVE. Everything that the null blocks throw into the grinder needs to be generated by PvE warriors and industrialists, and there has been very little going on with Citadel to make either group all that excited.

I’m no PvE pilot (apart from doing wormhole sites with a fleet, the occasional DED site, or boredom-induced hisec mission), so I can’t really speak for that section of the populace, but I can say that Citadel has no direct effect on PvE content. It will provide a slight decrease to profits from the increased market taxes at NPC stations, but that’s pretty negligible. CCP has hinted that development was ongoing on new NPC AI with the Drifter stuff, but that was months ago and nothing has been heard on that front except that Drifter Incursions would be going away – not exactly high praise for the new AI. Not a lot of reason for PvE players to stick around when the only thing the future seems to hold is eating the same moldy salad repeatedly forever.

On the Industry front, which I am much more involved with, Citadel provides… Astrahaus, Fortizar, and Keepstar blueprints. That’s it. Industry will stay firmly tied to POS, with the same mechanics, benefits, drawbacks, and absolutely horrible reaction interfaces. There is promise that all of that will move to the new structures in the future, but once again, not a lot of excitement beyond building the big new space castles.

To me, these two show that there is some bias towards the vocal minority. The two sectors of the game that directly support the ability of null blocks to piss away 141 Machariels in a single go aren’t getting any love, while the PvP oriented pilots are getting the biggest and baddest fortresses this side of the Maginot Line. Hopefully once Citadels release and the kinks are worked out, CCP points their developers at getting industry moved over and some new PvE content.

Chance Ravinne: Niden brings up narrative and I think that’s a major point that pushes CCP towards PVP development. PVP players are not just the most vocal within the EVE community; they’re the most visible to the outside non EVE gamer community.

Articles, videos, blogs, stories.about EVE ate largely composed by PVPers. They are the public face of EVE. You hear about the giant battles, massive scams, betrayals, traps, and near death encounters. Mission blitzing? Not so much.

Keeping those people happy and active is not just about keeping them subscribed, but also generating interest and hype among the broader gamer population. And until there is an enormous PVE revamp that blows away other modern games, it will stay that way.

Luobote Kong: I am astonished this has not been generally understood. At Eve Vegas 2015 CCP Quant presented some excellent graph porn. Amongst it was the following gem:

activity.16

With the comment “13.8% of players engage in PVP on any given day”. So CCP knows this yet despite this they devote a disproportionate amount of Dev time on PvP.

So it really should not be surprising that most players (on whatever measure you choose) don’t do PvP. Most of them live in Hisec too even if you account for alts. It makes perfect sense. It is the business hub of the city state that is New Eden. Null being the rural backwaters ruled by landowners, Lowsec being industrial hinterland with gangs fighting over their neighbourhoods and wormholes being where the refuseniks go to live their alternative lifestyles. This all needs a working infrastructure, an economy and the people to support the pew pew of the few. If you mess with any of those three factors then you are in the realms of unintended consequences.

Citadels directly impact both infrastructure and economy of Hisec so will obviously have some unforeseen impacts on the third – people. But it goes further. Many people (not including myself) do not want to have any direct relationship with Null or even Lowsec. Hisec is what they want to do specifically because it isn’t any of the other places in Eve. But CCP with the proposed citadel changes are seemingly determined to outsource Hisec content to the Null entities and washing their hands of any responsibility. The very thing many of the inhabitants seek to avoid. So a change aimed to improve the lot of a few could well have unfortunate ramifications for CCP and they possibly  will have lost control of the levers to put it right.

Even for those that do want to engage with the changes, the rug has been pulled from underneath them. There has been no real explanation why Medium Citadels cannot have markets. But this decision cuts out a large proportion of solo and small independent groups from the action, as well as giving them no path to grow, mature and eventually challenge the existing large groups. What these second class customers are given instead is a future where they either have to subsidise a citadel’s Null block owner’s income or have to grind more to pay the higher NPC  taxes just to be able to buy or sell something. It’s not a good one because it is in no way better than the current arrangements..

So to answer the question, yes we are letting the foundation of EVE wither away, or rather sold away. It might of course be this is exactly what CCP wants to happen for reasons I am not familiar with. Perhaps PvPers are more profitable customers? Perhaps non PvPers are turning newer players off joining Eve? It would be good to know what CCP believe the impact of their policy will be and why that would be a better outcome than the current situation and indeed better for the game as a whole.

General Stargazer: PvP vs “non PvP” balance in Eve has been an eternal struggle. The game is portrayed as a self contained universe, a sandbox that is driven by those that play in it. Let’s quickly look at something as simple as using a battleship to pvp with. In order to go out and PvP in it you’re going to need to be able to first get the skills (and support skills to fly the thing). So you’re going to need to raise the isk to buy the skills. So you go out and mine for it, or you do missions, or capture a few complexes in facwar to convert your Loyalty Points into items to sell. But you then have to get all your items you’ve made yourself to somewhere you can sell them, so you have to get a ship that can move them to a trade hub. But to get that ship, someone would have to have built a ship in the first place, that person in turn would have to have got the skills to manufacture, the blueprints, the minerals, the trade and then moved it to the location to sell.

By this point there is a good wedge of non pvp actions already had to have taken place before the individual has even got the ship. Then the process occurs again with each of the mods on that ship. Someone, somewhere would have produced them for you to use.

So yes, in a sense, I can appreciate that there’s a lot of steps involved in getting to where PvP occurs and that is often forgotten about. But at the same time, it’s typically seen as a big portion of the game too because of its excitement value. The largest swathes of the game is setup into an environment that is supposed to encourage PvP to occur. Spaceships shooting spaceships also makes for good press! We have the Alliance PvP Tournaments every year, hosted by the game’s creators, but it’s not like they host manufacturing tournaments, or mining tournaments, or even trading tournaments because, let’s be honest, in its current state, it’d be pretty pour watching from a competitive point of view. The game makes the news in the big fights for breaking records of sheer loss in a singular fight by multiple entities and everyone loves a good picture of spaceships shooting each other; not because someone completed the manufacture of their 250th Megathron.

A portion of what i’ve said here has pretty much been touched on by everyone else, but part of me is also asking, in the big picture of New Eden, if you’re not pvp-ing and you find what you’re doing is fun, would you really complain about it? How many ways can you organise a trade or build a ship ? Some things are just the way they are and in a sandbox universe I don’t think it’ll change. People will just talk about whatever is the most versatile, dynamic and competitive in a game and I think PvP wins that side of most games.

Jakob Anedalle: The statistics from CCP Quant can be interpreted in many different ways, and I think the quick reading we’re hearing here is very analytically lazy. Even assuming that the “13.8% on any given day” is indeed players, despite the fact that CCP has previously said they have trouble distinguishing accounts from players in their data.  I play perhaps 4 nights out of the week, and when things are quiet in the warzone I might only get in a fight one of those nights out of a seven day cycle – so that would be a “14.3% on any given day” stat.  This would then describe a “PVP Casual.”  But PVP is what I look forward to foremost in Eve.  My station trader alt logs in once or twice every day. When I had an alt in the now-departed Aideron Technologies I logged in twice a day to swap jobs around.  Does that mean I’m twice as much of a trader or industrialist as a PVPer?  Does that mean that CCP should invest more money in improving the station trading playstyle?  That would be the wrong answer for this use case, since the station trading and industry is there to fund my PVP, though there certainly are players who have each of those as their main playstyle.

CCP does have per-player information and have analyzed it before as in

Eve Online Keynote 2015 – CCP Quant’s presentation. See his breakdown of the Professionals (all aspects of Eve) plus the Aggressors compared to the Entrepreneurs plus the Traditionals.  There is a bias towards the latter combination – perhaps this is the 62% quoted?  Read also Neville Smits analysis in his blog entry “For All The Quiet Ones”, which is where I was able to finally get this video link since CCP hasn’t made a playlist of their Fanfest 2015 videos.  I won’t reiterate his points on “Why Better PvE is Good for Everyone”, but I think just about everyone would agree that making missions less predictable, perhaps via procedural generation, would be a huge step forward that would help everyone enjoy PVE more.  More controversial would be to make more PVE like burner missions, with a dynamic opponent ship that can contest a well fit, well flown ship 1v1.  Narrowing the gap between PVE and PVP is somewhat like when we hear some long-time players say that all players should naturally move from highsec to nullsec – that may not be the direction those customers are putting down their subscription cash to enjoy.

The structure of Eve may be well described as a pyramid with a gold-plated top for PVP, but there is a need for a strong base to that pyramid, and to misuse a recent business slogan there is a fortune to be made at the bottom of the pyramid.

Luobote Kong (again): Coz Jakob says I am lazy, here are the graphs he was referring to:

 

 

  • CCP has grouped players into 5 stereotypes: Professional,Entrepreneur, Aggressor, Social & Traditional (plays Eve like a traditional MMO. This diagram describe what these stereotypes tend to do in game.

 

 

Stat3

 

 

  • The percentage makeup of those stereotypes in Eve in the month prior to Fanfest

 

 

Stat4

 

 

  • And for some context in what this means in terms of destruction (Note: the is a logarithmic scale!):

 

 

Stat2

Also note, structure grinding will not be anywhere near that level now with Aegis Sov.

Saint Ambrye: PvP is the basis for pretty much any MMO in existence right now. Quick twitch games, such as first person shooter games, are more prevalent due to many factors and designed to appeal to our shortened attention spans. Eve is no different in this area and is founded on the PvP aspect of the game. To paraphrase one of my mentors very early on in the game, “There are two types of Eve players.. The hunter and the prey.” All players regardless of game play have to deal with PvP in some form or the other. From gankers, to elite PvPers, to BLOPS, to roams everyone will experience at one time or another.

I was dead set against being a PvP person when I entered the game two years ago, thinking that I could just do my industry thing and never have to worry about losing a ship. Ship destruction was good for my intended career and would allow me to slowly amass a fortune of ISK.That changed extremely quickly as I joined a player corporation and then my industry skills were getting intermixed with combat skills so I could help in some way with the fleets needed to secure our space. As an Eve player you cannot hide your head in the sandbox and expect to never get involved in PvP. IT is inevitable that all players will get involved, either voluntarily or involuntarily, in PvP. I have slowly came around to the dark side of Eve and now look for fights out in my systems around our capital seeking to get better at PvP for two reasons: 1. Be better able to defend myself against other players, and 2. It adds value to my playing by feeling that I am a part of something bigger than me.

This game is built on PvP because that was the way of the west as Eve started out and the style of play emerged from those early players. This is the beauty of Eve is that the players before us set the standards and expectations of game play in order to entice more people to play and join in the fun.

Tarek: As stated before, PvP and PvE activities exist in a symbiotic relationship. If the PvPers don’t fight and lose ships, the PvEers will run out of customers to sell to, and if the PvEers don’t loot, many much desired modules and base materials will not be on the market in sufficient quantity to satisfy the demand.

I would add an additional distinction here: many people will exclude all non-combatants from the term PvPer and I am sure in their statistics CCP use aggression timers as the basis to determine whether someone engages in PvP. However, industry and trading also involve considerable PvP elements. People compete on the markets, engage in races for the best sources of cheap deals and try to bring finished products to the market as soon as they can and even alliance logistics or professional haulers like Red Frog need to engage with the game world in a competitive level to sustain their activities.

True PvEers in my eyes are only those who spend the vast majority of their in-game activity with mining, mission running or ratting and with no other goal than to re-invest their income into even more PvE activity. A player who has three alts collecting loyalty points, incursion rewards and high level ores to be able to build or afford ships for fighting is essentially a PvP player even if they spend a lot of time doing other things than ship combat. A player who rats or mines in nullsec and occasionally joins a fleet because they have to lest they be kicked out of their corp/alliance is a PvE player because they do not want to engage in PvP activity, they are forced to, just like a highsec mission runner or miner who is preyed upon by gankers.

Under these conditions, I believe it is fair to say that a considerable amount of PvE activity not only indirectly serves the purpose of PvP but is seen as a necessary evil by those who need income to replenish their PvP losses or to gather and buy base materials and goods for industry and trading. That being said, I still think the amount of pure PvE players in EVE is considerable, and I agree that their playstyle does not get enough attention. Reforming and redesigning the PvE mechanics would not only serve them though. Inconsequential and boringly repetitive activities that can be done AFK or effectively conducted by a bot are in my opinion against the essential core of what EVE as a game is supposed to be: a world that is influenced by the actions of players and where player actions have consequences for themselves and others. The “bot aspirants” – to borrow a term from CODE – and AFK farmers are the symptom of a disease that eats away at the core of the game. I think it is high time that CCP dedicate major development time to the game’s PvE mechanics and content, and since so many engage in PvE the results will benefit the gameplay of everyone with the exception of the truly autistic mission runners, miners and ratters who do nothing but leveling up their wallet. 

 

Tags: citadel, cz minutes, pve

About the author

Niden

Perpetrator of thuggery in low security space, artist, and known as “The Stalin of Crossing Zebras” - Niden is the Editor-in-Chief of CZ.

  • Black Pedro

    In the end, the debate over how many players play for PvE and PvP doesn’t really matter. The game CCP designed and developed is a PvP sandbox, one based on the principle that players are always at risk to each other. That means that from a top-level perspective, PvE only exists to induce a player to offer themselves up as content for the other players in exchange for resources in the game universe. This design puts assets at risk, provides value to those PvE rewards, and generates content for those looking for PvP. Removing PvE or PvP breaks this game design, and would quickly kill the true gem of this game, the vibrant player driven economy.

    Of course more engaging PvE would be better for everyone. But it takes significant time to develop compelling new PvE content and it needs to be continually iterated on or players get bored and/or the content gets beaten which causes its own problems in a single-economy game like Eve (see: Incursions). CCP is not developing a game with a simple developer-creates-content-players-consume-content model but rather one where the PvE is just there to get people into space. Yes, almost everyone does it, and some people seem to do it almost exclusively, but PvE is only there to enable the player-driven narrative that is at the heart of the Eve Online experiment.

    CCP Seagull has doubled-down on that player-driven concept so don’t expect any radical changes of this basic design which has served the game well for so long even if that 62% figure was somehow true (but I seriously doubt reflects the true number of human players that eschew PvP). That said, missions, ratting, and especially mining are long overdue for an overhaul (ideally one that rewards active play over AFK bot aspirancy), and that would be development time well spent as it would benefit all players, PvE and PvP alike, once the player-owned structures have been thoroughly implemented.

    • Bill Bones

      If player-driven content is the core of EVE, why PvE doesn’t drives anything? Where is political struggle, the economical struggle? Why NPC empires are beyond the reach of capsuleers? EVE PvP is like telling Donald Trump to grab a gun and a bunch of warriors and go to Somalia to become a warlord if he craves power.

      Only losers do that. Power is convincing millions of stupid to vote for you and become President. Real power is being the one behind some stupid lending his face to become President and pretend he’s in charge…

      • Black Pedro

        Um, I am not sure what you are saying. If you want the players to be able to influence the NPC Empires, you might get your wish as they are suppose to be “losing their grip” since Rubicon and the player-built stations are part of this. But at that point, the Empires are secondary to the player-driven content. How can the NPC empires be under the control of the players when by definition that would be player-driven?

        If you want to work for the empires, there already is a mechanic that blends player-driven stories and the NPC empires which you can even influence: Faction Warfare. Are you asking for an expansion of that?

        The NPC Empires are relatively inert because they have to be from a game design perspective. They serve as the backdrop to the “safer” space in the game where new and small group players can play the game. Do you really want The Mittani to be able to come in, usurp control of the Amarr Empire by political or economic manoeuvring, and lock all non-Goon players out of Amarr stations while siccing the Amarr faction police on the poor highsec miner who just returned to the game?

        But you are wrong, PvE drives almost everything. Aside from industry/hauling (which you can
        argue isn’t classic PvE as you are changing/moving resources, not
        creating them into the universe) people usually only undock for PvE, to
        control PvE resources/space, or to hunt those engaging PvE.

        Political power, and thus in-game power in Eve rests amongst the players, not imaginary NPCs under the control of the developer. If you want to rally people to your cause, you have to rally real players and have a real war like what seems to be going on nullsec the last week, rather than the scripted, never-ending fake wars the Empires are permanently engaged in. The NPCs, while colourful, intentionally play little purpose in this game other than to be resources for the player to harvest. Maybe that can change a bit with new initiatives like new NPC AI, but for now everything interesting that happens is created by the players as was intended when CCP designed Eve as a player-driven sandbox game,

  • Kinis Deren

    Even though I only PVP, I would tend to agree with your original commentator to some extent.

    With only limited & sporadic information officially available from CCP, one is left to attempt to tease out EVE population changes by indirect methods. In one such attempt, I use the number of jumps for a given security space region divided by the total jumps made in New Eden as a measure of the relative population distribution for a given month. Again, this approach will ignore capsuleers that never make any jumps (station trading or cyno alts, for example). Please note the last data point for relative activity for March 2016 is incompletely calculated as the month hasn’t finished yet.

    http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/KinisD/Population__Activity_MAR-16.png

    The relative activity for a given month is the total jumps made in New Eden expressed as a percentage of the total jumps made in New Eden for January 2010. Essentially, I am using Jan 2010 jump data as an arbitrary baseline figure with the assumption that when more players are actively playing the game then more total jumps will be correspondingly recorded.

    Knowing that subscriptions have decreased over recent years we can see that the population distribution change isn’t just a change in demographics but represents ~20% decline in the Hi Sec population & accounts. This change can be traced back to the Odyssey (4/6/12) expansion. Granted, there was a degree of movement from hi sec to null as larger renter empires flourished but it seems the majority of lost accounts didn’t want to become a serf for something they’d been independently doing quite happily in Hi Sec.

    So, I don’t think the issue is necessarily a “PVP vs. PVE” play style debate (all play styles are equally valid after all) but more to do with the crossing the Rubicon decision by CCP.

  • Bill Bones

    I am humbled by the outcome of my comments on the wardec blog, and also I am happy to see the exact sources of the “62%” figure. It is the sum of the archetypes that aren’t neither “professional” nor “aggresor”. Certainly those archeypes do *some* PvP, but as I said, a miner being ganked is also PvP.

    Contacting what I call the foundation of the pyramid is not easy. You must be one of them and be in a foreign language channel and talk a lot and be very aware of your surroundings as a PvEr to understand that most of the time most of the people is doing PvE, minding their own business and not interacting with anyone but a few PvPrs. And of course, they never make the news. Same as CCP’s ancestors were famous for ravaging stuff in their drakkars and not because they were dedicated cattlers and raised sheep and pigs to the point of almost destroying Iceland and starving to death right by the richest fisheries in the world in Greenland…

    As I said, PvErs are the cats of New Eden. Household cats in the USA kill more animals in a year than all large predators in the world could kill in ten years. They just go unnoticed because nobody thinks it’s all that interesting what a stupid cat does when it’s not at home… nobody cares when a stupid PvEr shoots down his 10,000th NPC or mines the 1,000th asteroid… and yet without those stupid PvErs there would not be affordable ships and modules.

    On the comments made I want to say that I am using “PvP” as “destruction of palyer assets”. Of course there’s other PvP as “competition for limited resources”, all the way up from mining the last asteorid in a belt to being the only supplier of a module in a trade hub. That PvP keeps many PvErs going, and funnily enough CCP just droped a sledgehamme of NPC taxes on them for whatever reasons, ranging from “incentivize Citadels in a pretty dumb/desperated fashion” to “secret masterplan beyond our customer understanding” (but then, CCP rarely outsmarted its customers in the past, and the opposite happens regularly).

    Before this becomes too long and winded, I will just share my favorite theory on what should PvE do.

    First, CCP should add “more of the same” just to keep the mission runners happy, and make the old stale oatmeal look a bit fresher. In a world were people WILL save the damsel for the 100th time, it is just good etiquette to make it happen as late as possible by seeding new missions each month (or any regular schedule allowed by the production process).

    Second, players will always consume PvE faster than CCP can generate. Thus, allowing players to generate PvE is a must. Ranging from mission building tools to a dynamic system where mission oportunities were generated based on what players did, reacting to success or failure (failable missions would be a difference!).

    There is a whole New Eden to unveil when you engage the PvE cats. Ask Sugar Kyle when she engaged the PvE community through her blog; the answer was massive and pretty shocking to everyone involved…

  • Messiah Complex

    I can’t prove it, but I suspect that the number of players that log in just to “be in Eve” is fairly large. It’s a beautiful game, and it offers nearly endless opportunities to casually putter around in space.

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  • Nou Mene

    It’s always interesting to read what wittier players think.

    I keep thinking that the discussion “PvP vs PvE” is not a good one, In EVE both are deeply ingrained. In my opinion PvE (actually, reliable [fun] daily activities) is the base for any game (MMO).
    In EVE the division of space (hs, ls, ns and wh) makes everything easier, its a matter of risk. For me is surprising how invulnerable is ns.
    I think PvE needs to be overhauled (in every space), and I’m convinced that doing so would reinvigorate PvP as well (as the playerbase).
    How many of us PvPers would be joining a fleet to some op similar to an Heroic raid in wow?

    In terms of citadels, what if HS NPC markets had the same taxes that player owned markets? LS somewhat of a mild difference being advantageous for player owned ones, and NS very advantageous towards players (we wormholers are going to be happy with anything i guess xd), with the intention of keeping HS more of a NPC controlled space, and NS reversed (and at the same time, maybe taking some value from NPC NS).

  • jasperwillem

    My biggest problem with the PVP centered expansions, blogs, communactions, etc from CCP…. is the fact, that the huge player-base that is not into it for the day-to-day stuff they do. The builders, enablers, traders…. etc… have to work with interfaces that are horrible. Just to name a few;

    – “Order management is based on a ‘per order’ click system” vs “mass fitting ships”
    – “Contract and trade skills did not scale in EVE since 2003” vs “alliances hold 10k+ members”
    – “Filtering, saving and a way to template stuff for market orders has to be done outside EVE (api, tools, etc).” vs “saving fleet setups, saving / searching fits, etc…”
    – “No way to share market quickbar” vs “Sharing fits, sharing overviews”
    – “No alerts on orders, contracts, etc” vs “Alerts on all stuff related to PVP structures”

    What if it was possible to mass cancel orders? Mass buy out a market? You were able to filter orders by region? You could handle 2500 orders on a trader? Share your quickbar between your buying alts and your selling alts by drag and drop a link? You could template your contracts for shipping orders? You could get alerts on public contracts from player X or Y? You could get set alerts on your orderportfolio?

    There is so much stuff that PVPers have in game, that enablers have to get up themselves, its a miracle so many people stay around to do it.

    And for my personal quest: Why cant I replenish orders?