CZ Minutes: Ethical Considerations (Part 1)
Xander Phoena
…don’t use professional resources to attack fellow media sources3.) Respect your fellow media. While being sassy to each other on a personal level is fine (hi Marc), don’t use professional resources to attack fellow media sources. While it’s easy to get caught up in the partisan politickery of EVE, it’s important to note that we as media should be ahead of that. Even if there is a rivalry, it should be a respectable rivalry. No copying other people’s articles, no alteration of personal content to fit site branding, and so on. If you reference somebody or some article, link them. It’s common courtesy, and establishing a polite business relationship is best in the long run. All of this ultimately boils down to “make good content, be professional, and make sure it’s high quality.” That’s it. Ensure your site is the best it can be, and you have done your job.
Bobmon: first and don’t let this shock you but I really agree with Tegiminis.
I however want to add that for me its very important to have fun while doing your job. I play EvE as a hobby and I run en24 like a hobby (Okey a hobby that takes a lot of time). There for my main rule for EN24 is that our writers, write pieces that they enjoy writing about. this can be gaint fights, awesome scams to lowsec small gang pvp, everything is welcome.
Unbiased reporting is very hard to achieve for a website run by eve players. this is because writers will write the story that they have access too. This can be either because they have experienced it themselves (on field of a big fight) or they were told what happened. A writer will then write his story from that perspective. This can result in a piece that might promote his own alliance a bit more but we try to keep this to a minimum.
If we notice that there are simply 2 stories from both sides then we simply create 2 pieces and once the truth is out there we can always post a follow up.
We are very happy with players submitting content to us that we would have either missed or maybe not seen from that perspective. This really helps us be that player driven site that I want EN24 to be.
Marc: Running two stories, one from each side, isn’t really applying any kind of real standard. It’s a tremendously lazy cop out. Think of it this way: we don’t give equal time to people who say the moon landing was faked as we do to NASA. Or at least we shouldn’t. You know who does? Tabloids.
That being said, EVE is a different beast. There are many ways to define a ‘win’ in EVE. ISK damage done, systems taken, number of titans versus number of dreads, how many did you kill before succumbing to your inevitable demise – it’s the thing that makes EVE pretty great.
There are also issues with a ‘three person review’ set up that Tegiminis advocates. One side will always say it is good, another will always say it is bad, and nine times out of ten the ‘neutral third party’ either doesn’t exist or isn’t qualified on any kind of real level to pass judgment on the piece at all. Not to mention the real world logistics of lining up three people to check every piece which is just silly, as I’m sure Teg will know full well by now. You’re lucky to find one person.
So there you have a Goon site, and EN24 playing the anti-Goon, and CZ chucking firecrackers at the both of themThe fact of the matter is that even in ‘real journalism’ there is bias. That’s why some newspapers are bastions of liberal thinking, while others are defenders of tradition, etc etc. I think that where the EVE-centric media sphere is right now is a fairly healthy place. It’s almost like the three person review system writ large. I know from experience that TMC really does strive to achieve some sort of balance. However, there are certain realities in EVE that preclude it from ever being a one stop shop for informed, yet unbiased, analysis of EVE’s current state. So there you have a Goon site, and EN24 playing the anti-Goon, and CZ chucking firecrackers at the both of them from time to time whilst giggling over the latest HVAC rage quit. Tegiminis: There’s definitely some issue with the three-man review system. That’s more of an ideal than actuality. More realistically, I sign off on most pieces independently of external stimuli, and ask questions from others when my information is lacking. Unfortunately, bias can never truly be eradicated; all you can do is minimize it to the point of harmlessness. I feel we do a pretty good job of it at TMC, thanks to our large staff comprised of writers all across the EVE universe. Hell, the two most active editors (myself and Oh Takashawa) are unaffiliated with the CFC or The Mittani except through TMC. Having a nice spread of contributors helps keep bias from becoming an issue, and I think we do a pretty good job given our resources. TMC will always have a “goon” stigma, and it’s honestly understandable, but over the course of the past year we have done a lot to try and make TMC a “one-stop shop” for EVE players. Not EVE news, mind, but EVE players; that’s why among the three sites represented here, TMC is the only one that runs non-EVE content with any regularity. We aim to provide a service to our demographic over explicitly EVE-only content. As for the “two pieces, one story” system, I do not dig it at all, except if we run a “point, counter-point” op-ed, where it makes the most sense. Instead, we try to get both sides of the story, filter out the nonsense, and build our narrative off that. To gives props where props are due, a number of our writers go the extra mile in getting the full story, often to the detriment of timeliness. It’s annoying to be beaten to the punch on an important news piece for sure, but making sure we have stories and comments from both sides of a story guarantees we have enough intel.
We are definitely not anti-Goon or anti-anybody. Everybody is welcome to write for us and our website is a reflection of our writersBobmon: Of course two pieces written about one event is not really a normal thing. we try to eliminate it from happening, but sometimes when stuff is hitting the fan, there is simply no other option. The last time we had to post 2 pieces about 1 event was when the HBC had their biggest fight against SoCo about 1.5 year ago. we choose to do this because it showed why both parties did what they did. We are definitely not anti-Goon or anti-anybody. Everybody is welcome to write for us and our website is a reflection of our writers. like I said before, our writers post about the news that they want to write about so yes this can mean that we miss out on certain views on a topic.
Marc: Sure, TMC isn’t a pro-Goon site, and sure EN24 isn’t strictly an anti-Goon site. Sure, we can say these things, and maybe even mean them. That doesn’t change the reality of the landscape. The writers submitting work and the readers looking at that work are overwhelmingly from one side of the fence or another on both those sites, and you know what? That’s fine. Options are never bad, and for the dedicated reader out there (probably some dude in nullsec refueling towers because that’s where all the fun is, amirite?) you can certainly find a pretty truthful version of events by being well read. Or you could just read CZ and have a laugh and stop taking everything so damn seriously.
Bobmon: You are typing truth mate! Im really happy with the ‘’news community’’ that surrounds Eve Online because its on such high quality level. When comparing to RL I think we can conclude that the article quality is a lot higher then some actual RL news companies
Tegiminis: So to brag a little bit: TMC is read by virtually every major player in EVE, across all coalitions and alliances, and the number of complaints we get from people actually in the know (as opposed to line members) is pretty small. While TMC definitely used to be more Goon-oriented, and still carries that reputation, it’s come a long way.
I read CZ regularly, or try to anyway, and the way I see it is that CZ is akin to a weekly. You open a paper like The Stranger to read some cool features, catch up on cultural events, and the like. TMC is more akin to a big newspaper: We can hit important stories with more regularity, but we often can’t justify the smaller, more personal-touch pieces a site like CZ provides. Those pieces are important too, and I’m very glad CZ exists and my good pal and former TMC colleague Marc is EiC.
The outer rim, where personal bloggers like Gevlon, Poetic, and Ripard (formerly, anyway) reside, is when you start getting into interesting news media territory. I read a good portion of these blogs on a regular basis, and they provide a level of entertainment that more reasoned, neutral sites can’t provide. Say what you will of Gevlon – it’s all true – but he does know how to write a piece that is fun to read.
Bobmon: Gevlon gets a lot of hate but I enjoy the discussion that form around his posts. These discussions are often very interesting to listen to.
I’ve been in the wonderful position to do spying as my second ‘’eve job’’ and nothing makes me laugh more than seeing my targets discuss articles posted on TMC, CZ or EN24
I often fear those who shouted the sky was falling and TMC would end all bloggers, may have been closer to the truth than intendedMarc: I often fear that the lovers of tin foil that enveloped TMC early on, those who shouted the sky was falling and TMC would end all bloggers, may have been closer to the truth than intended. People like Gevlon, Poetic, and yes even Ripard, are tremendous outlets for lines of thought, analysis, and hilarity that just can’t be matched by more serious-minded ‘media’ sites. They may be wrong, or over the line, or just flat out looney, but having been a blogger for a long time, I find a much greater sense of satisfaction when I read a well written blog post than I do when reading ‘XY-COK TAKEN BY XANDER’ news articles. Going back now to something Teg said earlier, does “Even if there is a rivalry, it should be a respectable rivalry.” include poaching people just to throw salt in wounds? I know this is sometimes done in the real world, but wonder if that makes it respectable. Tegiminis: Poaching is something that happens. I would be lying if I said TMC hasn’t poached people from other sites. Several of our writers used to work at EN24, and one (this was before my tenure as editor, and I don’t support it) wrote a pretty negative piece on EN24/Riverini. I understand being pissed about poaching. I’d be pissed if I lost somebody to a rival site too. The best way you can minimize the chance of a writer being poached is by making sure your editorial staff is competent, your general site quality is high, and your writers are pleased with your direction.
Xander: Do you feel that sort of behaviour is acceptable Teg? Even if it is, do you think it helps foster a strong overall environment for ‘Eve media’? Is this not just an example of pulling the PvP nature of the New Eden sandbox out into the wider meta?
Bobmon: #SHOTSFIRED
Yes members of our team has been poached by TMC, do I care no not reallyYes members of our team has been poached by TMC, do I care no not really. It opens room for new writers. of course I can’t deny that I loved to have kept some people but in the end if they decide to leave then I can’t stop them. I’m pretty chilled with these things, The only time that I’ve had a problem with TMC poaching our writers is when they have been told a certain story that is not true and when they make their side look a lot better while in the end of the day, we are all space journalists making a living out of our keyboards. Tegiminis: I think that it’s acceptable to poach a writer. If you can provide a good reason for somebody to flip – money, quality, etc – and they do, that’s not over the line. It’s not so much a meta thing as an association thing. I know in my profession as a journalist I am picky about what sites I’ve worked for. I refuse to work at certain places due to quality concerns, and I have been poached away from a contract by promises of better treatment, more power, better pay, and so on. I do this because I want to associate with the outlet that is best suited for me, either personally or professionally. I can’t really fault someone for jumping ship if they feel they have a better opportunity elsewhere. I’ll be angry, but I’ll also understand, and wish them the best of luck and try to make sure that we don’t have an environment that encourages others to jump ship in the future. Thankfully, we have yet to run into this problem. Most of the writers active on TMC stay with us until they are removed from staff for inactivity or just cause; I have yet to see an active writer jump ship while they are still active. A few writers we let go, such as Marlona Sky, have gone on to put up content elsewhere, and that’s perfectly acceptable to me. It’s also important to note that writers can write for multiple sites. The only courtesy that a site like TMC asks for is the right of first refusal, at least if you were hired originally as a staffer. I have no problem with a writer putting up an article on CZ, for example, as long as they pitch it to me first and I say no. It’s common courtesy to respect your affiliations before engaging in possible conflict-of-interest behavior. Xander: For what it’s worth Teg, I ask the same thing of all CZ writers. They can write elsewhere but I just ask to be pitched the piece first before shipping it elsewhere. I’d be annoyed if one of my writers posted a blinding piece on EN24 or TMC that I hadn’t been given the opportunity to run myself. That aside, absolutely CZ writers can write for EN24 or TMC. Bobmon: Yea I’m all for people to decide their future and I have no problems with that. I actually supported people making a decision and sticking behind those as long everything goes friendly because I just hate getting into fights etc. Marc: Okay so the best question in that bit of spew that Xander did to get us started was: “What are we getting right and what are we getting wrong?”
I would love to see news organisations actually contribute more to events, ingame and out of gameBobmon: I think what could improve upon the fact that we show Hey LOOK COOL STUFF HAPPENED but we are never really the guys behind it. I would love to see news organisations actually contribute more to events, ingame and out of game. We all have the power to organise big events so why not use that and have some fun! Tegiminis: I think news organizations shouldn’t make the news. We should report it, maybe do fun non-news community events (the TMC roams Marc and Twyn used to do were a lot of fun, but not notable), but not actively make news.
I think where EVE news organizations can improve is setting up a better intel structureI think where EVE news organizations can improve is setting up a better intel structure. TMC is currently the widest spread of all the news organizations, but even still there is a lot we miss and a lot of people who refuse to talk to us because they don’t want to interact with certain staffers. Some sort of appreciable news and intel-gathering organization that uses the information gathered to create better pieces would be good. Think NPR or Reuters or Al-Jazeera; you can’t have good pieces without reliable intel, and it would be good if we could set up some sort of neutral reporter-alt organization for people to get in and cover fights without having to worry about reds/blues/purples. Of course this opens up concerns about spies posing as reporters to get opsec information. We’d probably have to set up some true neutral leaders whose mains are known to vet reporters and make sure the organization doesn’t become a nest of spies. Xander: To be fair, not only has CZ gone out of it’s way to organise in-game events, but TMC has actually reported on them also. Now, whether we ‘should’ be doing that or not is another question. I think when they are done as altruistically as the two community FFAs we organised, I don’t see the issue. If we organised a ‘let’s all log in and shoot poors in lowsec’ event, that would be a different kettle of fish. (Bet that would be a lot of fun though.) Tegiminis: For sure. Greater community involvement is one of the areas TMC wants to expand on, with roams and non-EVE game servers and game days. Unfortunately, it’s a daunting task, especially when most of our time is spent maintaining the site.
Ultimately, the best way to improve EVE media is to treat it professionally. We may be hobbyists, but that doesn’t mean we can’t apply a strong sense of quality control to the end productUltimately, the best way to improve EVE media is to treat it professionally. While it’s easy to say “I’m just doing this for fun,” you should always take pride in your work and strive to do the best you can. It’s what I ask of my writers, and it’s why we edit out dumb jokes, memes, stupid images, and so on from the pieces we run. I’ve chewed out my writers before over this “just goofing off” mentality. We may be hobbyists, but that doesn’t mean we can’t apply a strong sense of quality control to the end product and make sure we are putting the best foot forward. The best compliment I’ve received so far about TMC is that several of our writers list us on their resume. It’s flattering to think that our writers consider us professional enough to put forward their best effort and then list us as a reference for a job. That’s the sort of quality I want out of TMC.
Niden: So far in this discussion it has been nothing more than a pie throwing contest, soft tasty pies with a dash of passive aggression sprinkled in. And while you’re not throwing pies, you’re beating your chests about how great your site is and how you’re all doing the right thing, albeit with a tasteful notion of humility. That’s easy.
What are you doing wrong?
TMC is run by a guy who openly admits he views the CSM as part of the meta game and nothing else – why would he treat TMC any different? EN24 publishes stuff that varies from quite good, to poorly written, uninformed and utterly biased. I’d like to think CZ sidesteps that issue by not being an up-to-the-minute news site, but fuck, we must be doing something wrong too.
EVE media is leaps and bounds behind RL media because it’s still in its infancy. That we sit here and suggest that, yeah, we’re probably getting it right is reckless. The fact of the matter is that we have a rather large influence on the populace of New Eden and I’m quite certain we still have a whole lot more developing to do.
TMC will never escape the legacy of MittensTegiminis: TMC will never escape the legacy of Mittens. He’s the site owner and created it with the help of the CFC. That’s not something we can ever truly be rid of; the site is named for him, after all. That said, the notion that Mittens runs TMC with any sort of direct influence is inaccurate. He’s almost completely disconnected from editorial, besides looking up news occasionally. He focuses more on business development and general site management. Saying that Mittens is using TMC as a meta-propaganda platform hasn’t been accurate for over a year – since my venerable and irritable friend Marc stepped up to the plate and did editorial for a while before taking a break and moving to CZ. Marc: Okay, so what are you doing wrong? Tegiminis: Not giving enough attention to stuff that may not bring in views, but which set up future content/is interesting. Not having enough writers is specific areas of space (RUS being the most notable; we don’t have a single RUS writer). Making potentially bad calls on whether or not to publish certain pieces, like the counter-intel profile on Digi. Backend organizational issues I’m not at liberty to discuss in public. The problem is that I honestly don’t think TMC is doing a lot wrong that is reader-visible. Most of the problems I see with TMC are private in nature, and involve confidential information. If you think there’s a systemic problem with TMC, I absolutely want to hear it. But it can’t be “Mittens runs the site and makes everything spun to his benefit,” because that’s patently not true. Any one of our writers can debunk that.
…the single largest failing of TMC is not leveraging its ties to illuminate more storiesMarc: Well, from an ‘EVE media’ perspective, I’d say having only 1/3rd of the front page of TMC be about EVE is pretty bad, but then again that’s not really TMC’s goal is it? From my experience and my view from the outside, I’d say the single largest failing of TMC is not leveraging its ties to illuminate more stories. EVE is a universe filled with great stories, from individual triumph to organizational collapse. It has a wide and deep history of really tremendous things – some good, some bad, but all fascinating. That more of these things aren’t done with a staff of however many you have these days (70+ when I left) was something I always considered a failure when I was there. Tegiminis: Absolutely. We could definitely use some more EVE stories about the battles and collapses that slip under the radar. We recently brought some new people on to help with that – Karen Galeo, for example, is going to cover more wormhole news – but it’s always an area that can be improved. There’s an issue with your assertion, though. We do leverage our ties to bring in good stories. Unfortunately, our ties are primarily nullsec-oriented. The major failing of TMC EVE content is not that we don’t leverage our ties, it’s that we don’t have enough outside of the major players in nullsec. We have representatives from the CFC, NCdot, and PL camps, but almost nobody from lowsec, Providence, HERO, or w-space. It’s definitely an issue, and one we are actively attempting to fix. Marc: I dunno, I’m still waiting for that battle breakdown series Hendrick floated, what, 8 months ago? Or even a behind the scenes of ‘this is how XYZ alliance tournament team nearly lost!’, or a million and one other stories. Not to mention that manpower is manpower, and you have some very good staffers that could go hunting up good stories to tell. Stuff like Angry Mustache’s Serenity EVE series is just astoundingly good. Tegiminis: These are all issues endemic to the volunteer structure of TMC. I don’t know if that’s something we’ll be able to fix without making significant revenue and paying people dedicated wages/stipends to do that sort of coverage. You are right, though; we could definitely be doing better in finding more EVE stories and promoting a wider range of content, both about EVE and about other titles. Marc: I’m not trying to put you on the spot, I’m just saying that if TMC is doing anything wrong, it is that. Whatever the reasons may or may not be. Similarly, EN24’s reliance (at least in the past, not sure about right now) on reposted blogs is something I’d count as a failing on that organization’s part. I’m sure there are tons of people out there who could contribute their Grr Goons stories just as well as the bloggers who only sometimes get paid for the privilege of being on EN24. On CZ’s part, I think we’re pretty much the gold standard. We do no wrong. Well, we do have that HVAC guy around, which is probably a massive failure. And the site owner is a bit of a cock. And our IT guy is never around. And I’m about as checked out due to RL as possible. But did you see we had a Real Games Journo on the site last week? Exciting. Beat that. Tegiminis: We beat it over a year ago, when I joined TMC. I have a background in real games journalism, you fuck. Marc: Do you? I hadn’t realized. Tegiminis: I’m going to hurl you into the sun, you cheeky bastard. Marc: Anyways, seriously, I think that at least for CZ, we’re really still finding our legs. The stable we have is good, and as far as our own goals go we are meeting them. We could do with more voices from different sectors, surely, and all those really great stories floating out in the EVE universe could just as easily be told by CZ as they could by TMC (except we have 1/10th the staff). There is always room for improvement at any establishment though, and I think overall the various EVE sites are doing more right than wrong. Tegiminis: I think CZ is uniquely poised to offer a more digest- or zine-style format. As mentioned earlier, it feels almost like a weekly, rather than like a newspaper like TMC. CZ is better suited to do evergreen content (aka features and guides) than news, simply due to its size and the time the people involved can dedicate to the site. This is not a bad thing, it just is what it is. Tarek: My view of CZ is exactly that image of a weekly magazine. This is a nice thing because it means CZ does not have to compete with TMC or EN24 on news content. That allows for a more reflected approach where pieces can go through a more lengthy editing process. One of the things I noticed at EN24 is that they are really fast in picking up and publishing stories. That is impressive on one side but also makes them vulnerable to hoaxes a lot more. TMC seems to go another route to protect themselves against this particular vulnerability. Tegiminis mentioned that the writing and editing staff are mostly coming from a nullsec coalition background. With lots of writers from major coalitions, it is not so easy for a hoax to slip through since most of such trolls originate from exactly that in-game community.
One thing I really liked in the CZ approach from the get-go was the concept to strategically assemble a group of writers from different backgrounds in-game. That prevents the formation of peer groups which might keep others out. It also makes sure there are different views represented. The way content is organized also makes it nicely predictable. I know there’s one day a week where I can read about lowsec life. Another where I can read about Goons and another where i can read about wormholes. If I am not interested in either of those subjects then I can just skip that day.
The main problem I see with the way how CZ is set up is that it has a built-in limit for growth. Once you have every day covered you’re done. This could of course be intentional because it becomes too big and unmanageable otherwise. This also tells us something, though. CZ is basically the idea of one guy who is working on a personal project. It doesn’t come across as a place run by a staff collective like EN24 and TMC are.
Xander: That’s an interesting perspective Tarek. It’s part of the reason I dragged Marc on board and we will be working heavily on that in the very near future. But yeah, in terms of me running the show, where we are right now with a columnist Monday to Saturday and CZ Minutes on the Sunday is probably as far as I can take it solo. Marc has been AFK a lot but we have some very big plans to maintain the spine we currently have but add to it exponentially to bridge the gap to TMC and EN24 in terms of volume of content. Whatever happens, we wouldn’t lose the familiarity of strong daily columnists. Like you say, I think people like that they can come to CZ on a Tuesday and read about lowsec or whatever.
But while growth is a big deal, I’m not sure I’d ever want CZ to become the sprawling behemoth that TMC currently is. The thought of having 70+ dudes on the CZ staff terrifies me quite frankly.
Growth as a goal is often overrated. I can see how TMC and EN24 needed it.Tarek: I do not necessarily see that as a problem either. Seven pieces a week and then an interesting discussion to top it off is quite fine. Growth as a goal is often overrated. I can see how TMC and EN24 needed it. TMC has a lot of people behind it to begin with, then they want to pull in others to get rid of the image as “Goon Propaganda Site” which means even more people. At some point you need administrators to take care of so many individuals working together. With EN24 it was more of a scattershot approach. When TMC seriously began to threaten them as major EVE news provider they also had to get more people on board. Also, similarly to Mittani with TMC, Riverini wanted to step back a bit and not make that “his” site.
About the author
Xander Phoena
The good looking, funny, intelligent member of the team, Xander set up Crossing Zebras with Jeg in April 2012 mainly because he was talking too much about Eve on his other podcast. Playing the game for almost five years, Xander still has absolutely zero clue about how to actually play Eve but somehow still manages to talk a good game.
