CZ Minutes: DailiesNiden
Dailies have been an MMO staple for years, and now they’re coming to EVE as a replacement for the skill queue as a log-in motivator. According to CCP, the behaviour players exhibited during these virtually forced log-ins was not as meaningless as was initially thought – players would log in, get their skills in order, but would then often go on to do other things and interact with the game and other players.
Based on these statistics, proving that log-in motivators increase retention, CCP are implementing a very basic form of dailies in order to gather data for a more advanced feature down the line. At this stage it’s basically: log in, kill NPC, get 10k SP. At least it’s better than logging in to set a skill, right?
What is your stance on dailies? Will you be doing them? Do you have any alternatives for log-in motivators that you think would work better?
It’s safe to say I am no fan of dailies, but that doesn’t matter. Not even a little.
Niden: I’m not thrilled about the idea of having to log in daily to do something I would otherwise never do. You don’t have to I hear you say, but in a harshly competitive game like EVE that’s only theoretically true. It’s safe to say I am no fan of dailies, but that doesn’t matter. Not even a little.
It’s a statistically proven fact that log-in motivators increase player retention and interaction, just like it’s a statistically proven fact that kids that are made to go to school develop knowledge and social connections. In light of this, mine and your feelings about it simply don’t matter. It works and it’s coming.
CCP’s intention is to use the data gathered in this initial stage to create a fully-fledged dailies system that has actual content. Some people may enjoy that, but I won’t. Any content that is repeated enough becomes boring. However, I can’t fight reality and I think me not liking it is a small price to pay if it helps keep EVE healthy and growing.
No doubt, I will log in to do these chores and end up doing something fun and rewarding because of it more than once. I just can’t shake the feeling that the whole thing goes against the core idea of EVE: freedom.
JEFFRAIDER: I apparently can’t write anything about this without being really bitchy about it. Fuck all y’all hoes.
Timoxa Zero: I think people are being punished for not playing every day, which some people can’t or choose not, and 10k SP per day is like an extra couple hundred SP/hr which can be fairly significant in a training queue. Over 30 days you can chip away 300k sp from a skill, which is several days.
a great opportunity for newer players to catch up to the old guard
Dectoris: I think it is a great opportunity for newer players to catch up to the old guard. Personally between my accounts I have almost 400 million SP. So these will not affect me in any real meaningful way. It will be nice to chip away at Minmatar Dreadnought 5. As for the people who don’t wish to do it? Well I guess don’t. Either way, any sort of in game event that CCP has had has brought enjoyment to some of its players; I think this will be the same.
the difference between a fun game and an addictive one
Danikov: Ash has already said a lot about dailies, but for me it’ll always boil down to the difference between a fun game and an addictive one. Addictive traits can augment a fun game to make it that much more compelling, but only when done gently and without overshadowing the fun elements. Too overt and you alienate players, especially compulsive ones who don’t like feeling manipulated.
I understand the need to drive EVE financially and maintain a healthy, engaged, logged-in population of players, but in the grander scheme of things, EVE’s staying power comes from long-term commitment, not token daily logins. I don’t think dailies in their current form will result in significantly more player acquisition, re-acquisition, or retention.
CCP better get used to providing game access at bigger events for players unable to log in otherwise, while bearing the ire of players who work shifts, on oil rigs, or any irregular work that prevents them from taking full advantage of such a system.
Neville Smit: 10K SP is roughly equivalent to about four hours of training, so by pursuing this reward on a daily basis, you basically are getting 26 hours of training in every 22 hours of elapsed time. For a new player with less than 5M SP, that works out to be an extra 1 percent or more of SP generated every five days, more or less, so it’s worth the very minor extra effort. But for a veteran character like mine, with over 125M SP, that only means about a 0.04 percent incremental bonus. Clearly, the math favors the newbros.
And I am OK with that. Anything that encourages newer players to log in every day and make EVE Online a habit is a good thing. But if CCP Games thinks that daily rewards are going to make a difference in how often veteran players are logging in, I just don’t see it, except for the few ultra-min/maxers out there who are farming SP for sale as skill injectors in the market. I certainly won’t be rushing to my PC each morning to do my daily duty.
Regardless, it will be interesting to see how much daily recurring rewards affect log-in rates. I hope they do work as hoped – more logged in players means more opportunities for content of all types, and that is good for EVE Online. But I’m more curious to see how this evolves into a robust tribute system, which CCP Rise has said will be “more focused on goal setting and long term engagement than daily activity.” That sounds much more immersive and rewarding than a rather artificial “1-a-day” gimmick.
it could be as simple as including PvP as well as PvE as a daily
Ashley Traynor: CCP’s introduction of dailies to me seems like it could be a step in the right direction. The emphasis there on the word could. I don’t think that awarding players for krabbing every day is a great tactic, but to introduce SP rewards for continued gameplay sounds great to me. Perhaps it could be as simple as including PvP as well as PvE as a daily, with larger ships needing to be popped depending on how much SP you already have. That would encourage players to go out and hunt without killing friendly frigates to exploit the system.
Dailies remind me somewhat of the introduction of skill injectors. There were so many fears that the game is becoming pay-to-win, taking an EA approach to things and being blamed on the hiring of an ex-EA exec. Despite that though, did injectors ruin New Eden? No, if anything they provide a huge boost for new players since SP is so precious at that stage. The same thing is happening here for our lovely newbros. Imagine being on a fleet with just 2m SP and are unable to fly the ship you’re given until you remember “hey, I can apply my free SP to sit in it!”. Now if only CCP were to fix missions and actually make PvE content engaging….
Jin’taan: I was originally quite apprehensive about the SP Activity rewards, however after some relatively frank discussions with CCP and the CSM, I feel that the actual intent of the changes is sound. It won’t introduce more ISK inflation, and will provide even more downward pressure to the price of SP. What I dislike is that it’s done in a manner that doesn’t fit with the general demographics and play patterns of someone who plays the game already.
I am pretty dedicated to the game as a whole. I am a member of the CSM, I’m on Tweetfleet slack and I shitpost on reddit and Twitter. People who contact me generally get a response in a few hours at most. But I still don’t log in every day. I probably average 5 days logged in a week, as I enjoy playing other games with the people I’ve met in EVE. This is because EVE is one of the few games that effectively courts a ‘burst’ playstyle. I can spend 12+ hours in the game in one session and basically have most of the content I want to do done (setting up fights/doing PoS stuff/RPing/Running down an incursion, etc.).
I don’t want to be penalised by how I, personally operate in terms of logging in or not as heavily as is currently done. Logging in every day is just something a lot of people can’t, or don’t do currently. No matter the carrot given, there’s just not a reason for me to log on 7 days a week, as I will burn myself out of the game by doing so, no matter the in game incentives.
It’s for that reason that I suggested it be delivered on a ‘rolling’ period of a week or so, frontloading a portion of the SP so that you’re still incentivised to log on every day (for max gains), but are still granted a larger portion of the reward for logging in (and undocking and shooting a rat) frequently but not excessively.
Still, it will be interesting to see the data this whole thing provides, to see what happens. That’s what we can draw effective conclusions from, not from simply feelings or past precedence. I know it’ll probably be the first time I’ve ratted in a month or so when I do decide I have to have the free SP.
Xander Phoena: I actually think Ashterothi’s recent piece on the subject was pretty definitive overall in how I feel about dailies. Irrespective of how we as a playerbase feel about them, CCP have clearly made the case of why they are needed.
At this point, the issue isn’t whether or not we should have them, it’s the implementation. Clearly in their current format (which CCP has firmly stated is very much the opening gambit and one that will be iterated upon), dailies are too basic and dull. Ash’s suggestions, riffing off what Blizzard have done with WoW are much more aligned to something I would actively like to see in Eve.
Beyond that, I think the numbers (10k SP per day) feel broadly ‘right’ to me. Not so high as I would feel cheated to do it but if I was debating whether or not to log into Eve that evening, it could undoubtedly prove to be the tipping point. So yeah, we all feel uncomfortable about the introduction of dailies, especially in the format that we are getting initially but CCP have a lot of scope to make it work well and I think we should be patient. They clearly have data which supports them as a feature.
Ashterothi: Obviously my feelings about this has been well documented. However, it is important to reinforce that it isn’t the end of the universe. I will list several counterpoints here.
- Bad for SP farmers – Given people can now get 15% more SP, which is 15% more value, it means you can get more SP for the same ISK, lowering overall operational cost per injector, and allowing people who do dailies to out compete those who don’t
- Laws of simplicity – Anyone who has conquered the tutorial can figure out on their own how to accomplish this task. Likewise with high competition in highsec, this may lead people to experimenting with low cost ships to use in low sec, venturing into more dangerous playstyles.
- Law of averages – CCP doesn’t need every rat in every belt to be exciting, but if 5% of the time something exciting happens, then they have turned a simple task into a beginning of a story. You could run into other players, NPC capitals, officers, or other special spawns. Most days nothing of note will happen, but that one time…
- Take your medicine – One could argue that this is a dramatic change in philosophy and one that is wanted. The very complaints that people are making about the value of time and SP may be exactly the kind of mentality CCP is trying to undermine with this change.
- Allows alternative trainings – The only way to gain SP over time right now is having an active training queue. This will allow those who want to experiment with alts for trade, hauling, PI, etc to work their way into it over time, without canceling training on the main queue. This is a flexibility we have never had, and may lead to more experimentation with alts by players.
Dunk Dinkle: I’m sticking with my original thoughts on Daily Opportunities. It will be good for the game.
People logging into EVE is a good thing. The naysayer argument basically boil down to some version of “this isn’t fair”. Fairness and EVE don’t belong in the same sentence.
Eve needs to learn what the online gaming industry have been learning
Cosmo: Eve needs to learn what the online gaming industry have been learning for the past five years if it is to survive to the second decade. Any though that this will ‘ruin’ Eve is wrong. It isn’t ISK so it isn’t affecting the economy inflation, thank god, and SP mostly affects versatility, not efficiency. Either way, with SP trading not only accepted, but BOOMING, after the initial horribly misplaced outcry, this will be a drop in the pond for that, as we know ISK is almost without value when it matters. Either way, this is aimed squarely at new people, which let’s be fair, people have been asking to raise the starting cap for skills or give them SP via Opportunities for a very long time. Vets can also use this to boost up alts a bit without moving the queue over.
They will all partake, like it is happening with the recurring special themed events, and it will increase activity, help retention, and directly, it will increase exposure to the sandbox. There will be people that stop and just give it up, but as it is with these things, if the act of logging in for fifteen minutes or so feels like a chore, they aren’t long for the game anyway, or just prone for another 3-6 month break from Eve, as we’re known to do.
As for how this fits in the greater tapestry of things, i think we’re looking forward to something like Guild Wars 2’s laurel system or World of Tank’s female crew/special tank missions unlocking, which rewards consecutive ‘entries’ and overall makes individual contributions snowball together for a larger goal onwards. As is the case, these goals will be staggered and overall provide an infrastructure for creating a more lasting engagement period with the game, and possibly minimise even temporary unsubs.
Either way good news all in all. Still.. I do have a group of cells in my body that’s telling me that these are not the pillars Eve has been created on, that it’s just applying tools already existing instead of forging its own way forward regardless of the context within which it exists, something that as a subscription-based MMO with under 100k active players, in the year of the Lord 2016, it has been doing for a while now.
Either way, the only thing i can wrong CCP for are the very careful steps its taking in all its efforts to steer this massive behemoth that is Eve Online. But given how hard the community can rage when it feels it needs to, i would take it slow if i were them too.
Tarek: As Neville has said, the dailies favour new players much more. They incredibly increase the value of the extremely crappy entry level ISK generating content. There are the considerations about competition between older players and like Ashterothi I am a bit apprehensive about the impact on skill injector/extractor markets. In general I think it’s a mechanic that is pretty useful to enable progression at the beginning of the game faster. Newer players tend to log in at shorter intervals and engage in some small scale PvE much more just on the basis of the game being new and challenging for them.
What I don’t like is the very simplistic goal structure. Simply shooting one rat seems random and unengaging to me. It’s very much “push button – get bacon”. As with most EVE PvE content I think it should and probably even could be more engaging.
Sanders Schmittlaub: Hi everyone, I’m still alive, even though my 40,000 cows aren’t (story to follow at 11). I love the dailies for a few reasons.
First, it is going to bring PLEX prices down. People will have the option to do the dailies on alts that would otherwise require a PLEX to activate multiple characher training. Sure, it’ll be a few weeks to rack up anything appreciable, but slowly training up a scanning/hauler/PI alt would only take a few weeks – big ISK savings if pilots are willing to take five minutes a day in an Atron in HS.
I am a big fan of anything that helps lower SP players
Second, I am a big fan of anything that helps lower SP players. Sure, this benefits all players equally, but giving people what essentially amounts to a free 1x Skill to V per month (give or take a few days) provides colossal benefits to someone with a million SP, but not so much for someone with 100m – sure, the same amount is given to both, but when you kick it up to 5x skills which experienced pilots so love, 10k a day begins to lose its shininess.
Third, there are a lot of stupid skills in this game that provide minimal benefit for significant training time (looking at you PG/CPU Management, (Advanced) Weapon Upgrades, and (Advanced) Spaceship Command). I’m a strong proponent of removing or changing those skills entirely, because they are timesinks between ship and fitting levels and provide very little else. Anything that helps everyone get over those skills is a good thing in my book.
Fourth, 10k free SP a day means that the curse that is the attribute system begins to be a bit less toxic regarding what skills you can train to get the most SP per dollar. Right now, its optimal remap to INT/MEM, then train those skills for a year at the exclusion of all else. Adding in ~300k SP a month that isn’t attached to that system means you can toss some SP into Navigation skills while training Spaceship Command Skills (those two categories share not a single attribute between them), so I personally can finally get around to training into Black Ops ships and Capitals, or maybe improve my scanning skills beyond garbage, which I have been advised will make my life in W-Space significantly better but haven’t been able to since late 2014 because I’m a stickler for a well optimized skill plan (and maybe a little OCD).
So yeah, come hither free SP, and let me love you.
General Stargazer: Being the (Semi) bitter old vet who compares things to “back in my day” I must admit I’m not a fan. I’m not the greatest fan of CCP messing around with Skill points for dailies, or anything skill points based in general. I appreciate once again that it’s going to be great again for the new or young players progressing faster, but I hate the way it’s implemented. I don’t normally rat when I play as it is. Now I suppose gate rats will be good for something, then I’ll have to kill people to recover sec status gain 🙁
I guess as this doesn’t really give the older players any incentive to play I think I’ll just bury my head in the sand and go back to playing Valkyrie.