EVE-Online-casino

CZ Minutes: Casino War

 

At the onset of what we all now know as World War Bee, there was a kerfuffle about the naming of the war. One of the names that was bandied about, but quickly got shot down, was “The Casino War”. The war is over and we have all talked about it more than enough, however, there is a precedent here that is interesting: the funding of wars with the use of casinos. If we boil this down further, it is the use of 3rd party of services of any kind that generate ISK for the funding of war.

Many have raised their concerns (especially in the Goonswarm camp) about essentially an unassailable source of funds driving a war within Eve, arguing that the only way to combat it is to have your own gambling site and that this is not a healthy development for the game. Obviously, one might argue that there is bias involved in this view, but that does not invalidate the argument on its own merit.

The counterpoints usually provided by the opposing camp tend to revolve around the theory that the only reason the war on the Imperium reached such a wide scale was the fact that many people in Eve simply didn’t like the coalition and its leaders, and that casinos primarily fund a great many services to Eve players, such as media sites (like CZ), podcasts, in-game events, streams, and so on.

Where do you land on this issue? Should 3rd party sites or services, especially casinos, somehow be prohibited from funding in-game activities, or are they a natural part of our evolving ecosystem, reaching outside the game itself? Put yourself in the shoes of an alliance or coalition that is attacked using gambling money, do you still feel the same way?

JEFFRAIDER: If goons think any amount of isk would stop them from getting dumpstered, they are just as dumb as everyone knew they were. It’s hard out here for a pimp.

Rixx Javix: What if a member of your Alliance is a rich person in real life? And they like to throw money around? How do we police that? Oh, that’s right, we can’t. Rich Uncle, stupid Cousin, Trust-Funds, Casinos, Tax Returns, Lottery winnings, I suppose all sources of income are the devil’s work. The only solution is pure communism and equal pay!

Plus, where is this Casino money? I haven’t seen a dime of it yet.

Casinos don’t generate ISK, they just move it around

DireNecessity: I would point out that Casinos don’t generate ISK, they just move it around.  ISK, all ISK, must be generated by hardworking Capsuleers in-game and then enticed out of their wallets via in-game transfers.  Because something is organized/enabled outside of game doesn’t change the fact that, to be consequential, it must be completed in game.  This is how Eve functions.  A group like Goonswarm with out of game SomethingAwful.com origins criticizing another group for supposedly unassailable out of game location like IWANTISK.com has strikes me odd.  Goons, as I understand them, have always taken great pride in their out of game comradery and until recently, that comradery was successfully deployed origin of their in game unassailability.  This too is how Eve functions.  Casinos aren’t uniquely different.

Jin’taan: The recent CSGO gambling scandal raises real issues with the way gambling in handled in EvE. I will wait and see just how and if CCP chooses to address it.

Tarek: I’m with Dire Necessity on this one. The ISK doesn’t come from nowhere. The argument that gambling is potentially addictive and should therefore not be endorsed is also a weak one in the context. Gaming can also be potentially addictive, and in this case the argument involves an MMO which is actually notorious for how far some of its players will go in terms of self-exploitation to succeed. To continue with activities at one’s own detriment while gaining a feeling of fulfilment from doing so is the very definition of a psychological addiction, and it can be observed a lot in EVE. We can not simply point at one manifestation of such behaviour as wrong while at the same time potentially harnessing another form of it.

the gambling sites actually contribute to a more level playing field

Now, as for being on the receiving end of an attacker who gets financed by some major ISK fund, how is that different from being on the receiving end of an attacker who is financing themselves through massive income streams generated within their organisation? For as long as EVE is a continuously developing game universe, there will always be “old money” that can be used to outspend an opponent. If anything, the gambling sites actually contribute to a more level playing field, because it will often be the people with massive wallets they have built over years who will spend ISK on gambling. If such money flows into the direction of Pandemic Horde or some other group that has many less affluent new players among them, then the result is positive as far as I am concerned.

Niden: I think both Dire and Tarek leveraged good points and I’m not going to repeat them, suffice to say that I agree with them. However, there is one thing I think needs to be said here, a thing that I think it is critical that the community present a clear stance on: If CCP were to legislate somehow against casinos, that would be a mistake of worse proportions than Incarna.

So why is this? Well, the very site you are reading right now, along a large number of other sites, podcasts, streamers and in- and out of game events are funded by these sites. We (and I’m not just talking about CZ here, to be clear) don’t have fancy deals with other gaming companies that generate income, we don’t have ingame organisations whose income is intertwined with our own, we live and die with EVE. A large portion of the money spent on casinos goes back into the community, allowing it to create all these wonderful things that we enjoy and that bind us together. Remove casinos the majority of that funding goes away.

I think it’s disconcerting that this is not mentioned by the Goons and others pushing this issue, perhaps that has to do with the fact that TMC does not rely on casinos to pay their writers and streamers (yet). We’ve all seen Goon leadership stoop to smear-campaigning gambling sites over the past year or two (even before the war), yet, somehow, now it’s OK that they are launching their own (something they, in fact, have tried to do before as well) – a pretty grotesque double standard if you ask me. Would they be clamoring at the injustice of gambling-funded warfare if it was an offensive of theirs funded by it? I think not. Meanwhile, for many of us, it is the only means we can compensate our writers and content creators for the many hours of hard work they put into it.

Essentially, gambling in EVE also means donating to the community, except you actually get a service out of it when you gamble. Because most people, believe it or not, know how to gamble responsibly and get a lot of enjoyment out of it.

 

Tags: casinos, cz minutes, gambling

About the author

Niden

Perpetrator of thuggery in low security space, artist, and known as “The Stalin of Crossing Zebras” - Niden is the Editor-in-Chief of CZ.

  • callduron

    If someone can get isk from people by providing a service they enjoy, why ban it? It’s just banning fun.

    • Niden

      Yeah, I mean I personally agree and am pro casinos as they are. The point of contention here is twofold however: a) is gambling inherently a bad thing because some people can’t handle it (much like alcohol, cars and hammers) and therefore should not be allowed in connection with EVE, and b) is gambling bad because it means that it is a way to amass ISK that is not assailable ingame and then useable as fuel for war or a political agenda.

      • The Nigerian

        The first point will be debated until the end of time. It truly relies on personal preference and what a person holds as their own moral standard. I personally think that a person has a responsibility to recognize if they have a problem and let the casino know about it. Likewise, I think the casino has a responsibility to work with that person and do everything they can in game to address it (shutting down accounts, blocking access, and refunding isk as needed).

        The second part, I think that casino are very much assailable. The Goon casino proved that point. If IWI were to push their weight and hit anyone for whatever reason, eventually no one would want to support it and it would fail. That is why casinos are neutral and why the Goon casino failed. No one trusted it really to be seperate from Goons and Goons had a tendency to treat people like crap and stomp on everyone. So it was pretty much set in stone that it wouldn’t work out so well.

  • Afkforum

    Dire Necessity hit the mark straight away, well done Sir – grrgoon vet
    SA in the end was a fun depriving entity in Eve, just take a min to think about all the people that stopped logging in because of their blue balling and absurb behaviours in every possible place and manner along with making Null Sec space a turtle-dome. Even in this war they showed who they really are. They got moth-balled by a another entity like them which is ~hilarious~
    I liked being part of all this and now they are looking south. Making North and South both vibrant, now all’s left is East.

    Btw Salty Sion changed stance in Matterall’s show, poor them.

    • DireNecessity

      I’m in no position to see whether, in total, Goons have been good or bad for Eve. Fortunately, adjudicating such question isn’t my job so I leave it to CCP. At least from afar where I sit, I’ve found Goons entertaining. Highlighting allegiance to fellow brethren above all else seems both their greatest strength and greatest weakness. They have been and remain an extraordinarily powerful and cohesive group. At the same time difference befuddles them. Disagreement isn’t mere disagreement, its betrayal. Nobody important seems to depart the organization on friendly terms and this generates much enjoyable drama. Along similar lines, it’s always a pleasure to see them shocked, truly shocked when players and groups they’ve relentlessly excoriated harbor enduring dislike for them. I’ve had very little luck in my life up and deploying “Bygones!” in game our out. Seems Goons suffer similar difficulty. It’s heartwarming.

      • Kamar Raimo

        “Disagreement isn’t mere disagreement, its betrayal.”

        That part is the one which amazes me most. They used to be the guys to point and lauch at the “Internet spaceships is serious business” crowd, but by now I can not think of any group where the leadership and even many line members take everything more serious

  • Vice McNellen

    It’s clear that you have a huge conflict of interest in this area and you even acknowledged that yourself, so nobody can reasonably expect you to write a more balanced piece. The far better option would have been to not write it at all, though.

    I generally enjoy reading articles on CZ, but this one was just really painful to get through.

    • Niden

      I’m sorry to hear that someone invaded your home, put a gun to your head and forced you to read this article. 😉 Have a nice day.

      • Vice McNellen

        The articles on CZ are usually very good and feel authentic. This one, by contrast, comes across as the kind of yucky “sponsored content” that you usually only find elsewhere. That’s why it sticks out like a sore thumb and why I wanted to give you feedback about it.

        I can’t tell from your response whether you are genuinely not interested in this kind of feedback or whether you are secretly embarrassed by this piece, too, and are now trying to distract from the argument with a helping of silliness.

        • Rob Kaichin

          I feel that you identify it as sponsored content because it presents some cognitive dissonance: perhaps that’s because you don’t like gambling generally, or because you don’t like that all the view points were from one side. If it’s the latter, I agree that it’s suspicious, but I think that the reasoning presented is strong enough to validate those viewpoints. If you don’t, argue against them!

        • The Nigerian

          It is relevant due to a lot of discussion on Reddit and other mediums about Casinos in Eve. This is not something that sprang up out of nowhere.

  • Matterall

    Good question to raise Niden.

    • Niden

      Well I didn’t really, you did on TiS, I just stole that 🙂

  • luobote kong

    ISK returning to the game to generate content must be a good thing. However, large volumes of ISK can concentrated into the hands of a few will obviously manipulate outcomes when it is deployed. Good diplomacy would have accounted for and even marginalised that before picking a fight. Its not as if the same strategies aren’t used every minute of every day in Eve’s markets. Someone just happened to corner the market in active players rather than long limbed roes in this case.

    • Niden

      Why, it’s almost like you’re a CZ writer or something 😉

  • As an FYI. Iwisk was the catalyst. Gewns and co. Got dumpstered because Mittens and Sion are complete and utter bellends. It is that simple.

    TMC will blame all the isk being funnelled to deserving groups instead of admitting they fucked up.

    I can 100% say my isk and IWISKs isk would have dried up, but then Mitts ego kicked in and forced the whole “you made me a criminal” bullshit. This then made us go into overdrive.

    Alex you were laughing when SMA stole from us, who is laughing now? I can say were 100 gorrillion percent, i am laughing so hard, it will keep me warm for the next ten years.

    IWISK redistributes trillions a year back into the community and we sponsor almost every event going. We only on one occasion 😆 sponsored a war and it turned out to be for the greater good of eve, regardless if we did this out of retaliation.

    It is known that eve casinos do not get involved in space polotics etc. But if an entity deliberately gets involved in a casinos business, then it is open season and you have to be a special level of retarded to think this should not be the case.

    Iwisk on distributes between 1-2% of all isk to the bankers who perform the duties to keep it running. We would reduce this to almost nothing but automation is not possible without breaking the EULA. This percentage is important as this is the only isk we “keep” as the rest goes back into the community.

    We dont just fund promotional stuff, but many players pitch ideas to us and we decide which are worthy or not. This may be setting up new trade hubs or starting a capital production etc… literally anything.

    Anyway i am on my phone which i hate typing on so that is my 2 pennies in the pot 😉

  • Rob Kaichin

    There’s something rather strange about a plea for “only personal resources” to be available for wars. The appeal that ‘impersonal ISK’ is somehow bad for the game strikes me as bizarre, simply because it doesn’t examine the origins of the ‘personal ISK’ at all. This idea seems to be more of a reflexive argument than an actual philosophical position: “you shouldn’t do this, because it disadvantages me”. It should really be rephrased as “this is unfair”.

    Personally, I think it rather hypocritical that the people who’ve benefited enormously by CCP’s previous mistakes *in game* are trying to choke out any form of equaliser to their previously-obtained wealth. That they previously tried to set up their own site, and that it crashed and burned, is the icing on the cake.

    If they’re looking for fairness, they’ve come to the wrong game.

    • Niden

      Well put.

    • Matterall

      I dont think the issue is fairness, it is that meaningless content is an emotional investment killer, and that investment is what EVE runs on. If fights are not for territory, whats the point? If everyone’s getting SRP’d, whats the point?

      • Owen Wells

        Because its fun, it really is that simple and I’ll give you an example of what I mean.

        We (Shadow Cartel) teamed up with Dead Terrorists last night to send 30 billion isks worth of battleships and capitals to providence. There was no strategic objective, no tower or station we hoped to save, everything was fully insured and by what you said above no point in us being there at all. Here’s how that worked out for us
        https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4ufh8u/shadow_cartel_gets_wreaked_by_proviblock_welp/

        And yet I heard many pilots say afterwards that it was the most fun they’d had for a while, and this includes the multiple capital fights over towers and moons with hundreds of billions of isk in casualties we’ve been having with DHSJ and friends the last few days.

        Sometimes fun is the point.

        • Matterall

          Would it be as fun if that fight took place on test server? Could you do it over and over?

          • Rob Kaichin

            Well, repeating the exact same engagement over and over would be rather boring, but doing different engagements regularly would be pretty fun. It would be like an Eve deathmatch.

          • Matterall

            Hmmm. guess it all depends on how your brain is stimulated.

          • Owen Wells

            tbh, yes and yes. Also what rob says below.

      • Rob Kaichin

        I think there is a certain feeling of resentment that it [the ISK] is unfair: one rather lengthy comment on another of the CZ pieces starts off “The MBC cheated…”. Cheating carries with it the automatic association that something is unfair, and I think that that commentator is representative of a reasonably large tranche of people.

        Are they justified in feeling that way? I don’t think so, but I appreciate that there’s an implicit emotional investment in feeling like you’re ‘the best’ at what you do (certainly an impression that Goonswarm has tried to create), and I can see how having the playing field ‘upset’ by someone/something you didn’t expect could cause indignation.

        Now, what you’re asking: ” If fights are not for territory, whats the point? If everyone’s getting SRP’d, whats the point?” is a whole different question. I’ll sketch out an answer here, but I think that it needs a more thorough look.

        First off, Owen below has given the most honest answer below: It’s all too easy to forget that Eve is a game, above and beyond everything else. That the affairs and affray of Nullsec can be all too often cast in the guise of real war belies the fact that Eve is meant to be fun. If it isn’t fun, it fails at its most basic aim.

        Perhaps here, I should draw a different between fun and entertainment, but I’m trying to keep this brief!

        Now, in my opinion, there’s a wrinkle in your assumptions that you’ve not examined: that the losses experienced by the MBC were “meaningless”, because they were SRP’d by IWI. This I don’t think is true, because someone is still paying for those losses . A loss transferred is not a loss made good, to paraphrase badly.

        That the losses appear meaningless is therefore more a function of wrongheadedness than anything else: If, as it seems to be the case, the real enemy was Lenny, then defeating Lenny should have been the real aim of Goonswarm, rather than defeating his mercenaries.

        There are *many* strategies that I would advocate, but the war is apparently over, so I shall keep silent for now. 🙂

        I do think that you’re correctly grasping a truth that “meaningless content is an emotional investment killer”, but I think that, in some ways, you’ve got it wrong: the roam below (and other such welpfleets) are fun because the emotional investment in the ships can be discarded ‘safely’ (without harm to the pilot). This means that the ship is an item meant entirely for fun. Does that make the actions of the players in the situation meaningless? I don’t think so, because someone is still losing something.

        As an aside, are you saying that SRP makes investment in a ship meaningless? That seems to be what you’re saying, but the implications of that, and your personal affiliations,seem to make that nonsensical.

        So, in brief: 1) Eve is a game, games are meant to be fun,
        2) Eve is real, losses are still losses, as long as players pay for them.
        3) Emotional investment is real, but you needn’t be invested in something for it to have meaning.

        (Man, I really failed at brief, didn’t I!)

        Edit: CZ has just published an excellent article by Tarek Raimo that references this dilemma, and I thoroughly recommend you check it out :).

  • Mephiztopheleze

    Arguments about how casinos are benign and ‘put back’ to the community are as disingenuous in EVE as they are in real life.
    By ‘sponsoring’ various in-game events, streams, media sites et. al, EVE casinos are engaging in what’s known as *Advertising*. The ultimate goal of all advertising is to increase brand awareness and, ergo: sales and profits. Claiming some kind of altruistic karma-points for this is both misleading and demonstrably false. ISK isn’t merely given away to anyone who asks. It’s *invested* in exchange for a service, usually the service of promotion. As an example, there’s an evebet.com logo on the bottom right of my screen as I type this out. evebet.com doesn’t give ISK to CZ for nothing. They give ISK to CZ so CZ will put their logo there and promote that site.
    Casinos are, at their heart, a business. If they’re run well, they’re a very profitable business.
    If SMA hadn’t ripped off IWI and then behaved like dicks about it, IWI wouldn’t have felt the need to protect their business interests.
    IWI are, from where I sit, the biggest winners of this war. They’ve made a good name for themselves within the EVE community. I daresay have benefited from this by an influx of patrons to their casino. Exactly what the Return-On-Investment of WWBee will be or how long that investment will take to be fully realised isn’t something I can say.
    Personally, I hate casinos and all corporatised gambling. I personally feel that those gambling on on-line games like the old somer-blink are fools. There’s no way to know how badly these games are rigged. At least with a bet on a real-world event, I can look up an independent report on who won, rather than relying on some website’s backend coding to decide when my number comes up.

    • Afkforum

      Let just not forget Goons tried their own site and TMC is a business as well.
      But I agree with the gambling issue but I heard they have some ceiling before they check the pattern.

      Personally I think and I heard this will well be a one time thing IWI influenced a war. They will continue helping Eve community in many ways though, Care4kids and stuff, they are into everything now. Good or bad, in the end kids are playing games.

      • Mephiztopheleze

        True, Goons did try their hand at a gaming site, I have no idea how well or badly it went. Yes, TMC is also a business, no arguments from me over that.
        The simple fact is, if I place a bet on a real life sports match, for example, I know if I won or lost because I can see the results play out. If my bookie stiffs me on my bet, I don’t ever bet with that bookie again.
        Purely online gambling is a whole different bucket of vomit. Your bet is ‘processed’ by some back-end code that then decides if you won or not. How ‘honest’ the game is depends purely on who wrote the backend code and their personal morals. You mention a ‘ceiling before they check the pattern’. Again, what’s the pattern, what’s the ceiling and how is it then adjusted and in what direction is said adjustment made? We simply don’t know.

        At least with real world casinos there’s some kind of regulatory oversight. No such oversight with EVE casinos.
        “Helping the community through care4kids etc”: once again, this is NOT done out of a sense of altruism. It’s a purely business decision made for very good business reasons: building brand awareness and pulling in more punters. Ascribing any kind of altruism to these actions is naive in the extreme.

        • Nick

          Do you know the IWI dudes in real life? Many people donate money and/or time to charities, your blanket statement that they don’t do it because they care is pretty pessimistic, with zero evidence to back it up.

        • The Nigerian

          Do you have kids? Well I do and I can say that if my son was in a situation where C4K would help him, I would hook him up in a heartbeat. That is why Iron and I do this. For us it is personal and a very important cause outside of IWI. IWI is my space job that lets me do all these cool things and meet cool people. Not everyone fits the type that you consider them to be in this business.

    • Niden

      Well put, I see your viewpoint, even though I don’t agree. Yes, marketing pays for EVE media content, that you can choose to get 100% free. I know the guys at EB pretty well, and I know they do what they do because they love EVE and the community, to equalize them with a business that’s only interested in the bottom line I think only illustrates how little you know about them. These guys are the same people that arrange EVE Down Under, EVE_NT and a myriad of ingame events. There’s no amount of ISK in the world that “pays” for that level of personal sacrifice and hard work.
      Also, what’s the alternative here? Donations? I don’t think so. Not paying the writers? Not happening.

      • Mephiztopheleze

        I work in commercial media and I fully understand what you’re saying on a level few others outside the commercial media world would ever understand it.
        Sure, the evebet.com gang organises a bunch of real world events. I’m in Australia, I hope to make it to EVE Down Under one year (except it’s held at 100% the wrong time of year for me).
        However, the fact is simple and you have not made any effort to refute it: EVE casinos are not giving ISK to CZ or any other kind of EVE media outlet (streams, videos, etc) “for free”. They’re paying for advertising. Exactly the same as the paper I work for will sell an Ad to a local business. Those businesses aren’t taking that advertisment for no reason. They’re taking it to try and build their business. There is simply no other reason to do so.
        Tell me, has any EVE casino made a substantial donation to Crossing Zebras and asked NOT to have their logo displayed on this site?
        I’m not saying EVE casinos or third-party-services-for-ISK should be banned nor am I suggesting that CZ or any other media outlet should refuse to accept the gambling ISK. I’m simply stating a simple, if possibly uncomfortable, truth about the nature of media and advertisers.
        At this point I should disclose that back in my early EVE days, I wrote several pieces for TheMittani.Com as a ‘resident newbro’. I was paid in ISK for those pieces and yes, I 100% agree, if I wasn’t getting paid, I wouldn’t have done it. I left TMC after some 3-4 months, not because of any issues with either the site or it’s management, but because it was so similar to my day-to-day job it was simply killing my ability to actually enjoy EVE as a game.

        • I’ve actually unofficially sponsored quite a few people without requesting shout outs.
          “When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all” – Futurama.

      • The Nigerian

        Yep I agree with you completely. Eep, Iron, and myself (Lenny) in IWI feel the same way. I regularly donate victory rattlesnakes and other goodies to the Eve gatherings with little care on if I or IWI get any recognition. Just seems really neat that someone that goes to one of those ends up getting a 3-5 billion isk ship or PLEX or something randomly. Kinda makes their day =)

    • Talvorian Dex

      What you describe are lotteries, and yes, it’s impossible to know if things are rigged. Personally, I use Eve-bet, but I do so for the sports betting. They have clear rules and an unequivocal result. If I bet “even” for total goals in a hockey game and it comes up “odd”, I’ve lost, cut and dry.

      From the perspective of in-game activity, though, ultimately these Eve casinos survive and thrive because they convince large numbers of people that they’re reliable. That’s done through being as consistent and accurate as possible. If players begin to see that they aren’t being fair, they’ll leave and the income source will dry up. And that is – very much so – prone to disruption. It’s no surprise that during WWB CFC players attempted to claim favoritism and unfairness among IWI payouts. They recognized this.

      Unfortunately, because they were CFC players saying it, no one believed them. The reason? Goons intentionally cultivate a reputation as being unreliable, and what we saw with WWB is the direct and inescapable consequence of those years of abusive behavior.

      WWB should be a lesson for any organization of any fame in Eve… goodwill is critical to your continued survival and success. Jeopardize that at your own risk.

      • Mephiztopheleze

        You know, it was long before my time in EVE, but I’ve read about another kind of EVE enterprise that made a heap of ISK because they convinced people they were legit. It was known as The EVE Intergalactic Bank, run by one ‘Cally’. The lottery style games run exactly the same kind of risk for punters.
        I’m not much of a gambler myself, but I certainly agree that I’d much rather punt on something that’s out in the open.
        The old saying about fools and their money soon being parted comes to mind.

        • The Nigerian

          To put it bluntly, IWI makes far more isk being honest and running a good business than screwing over our players. In addition to that, all of us enjoy the friendly environment that has been built on it and we would not change our business methods to screw over our players and ruin the positive environment.

          So really there is not just a monetary benefit but a social one as well to have an honest and legitimate in game business.

  • notsogoodobserver

    saufg box who are they?

  • Mr Banden

    Regarding what Jin’taan wrote. No, it really doesn’t, because that scandal involved actual real life currency exchanging hands.

    • Urziel99

      I’m more interested to see how valve will handle getting dragged into it vicariously. It could set the stage for ccp to be sued as a vicarious actor for the plex and api mechanisms.

  • Saint Michael’s Soul

    The majority of the (lenny) isk people are talking about was reserved for SRP. It didn’t generally get used. Allegedly there was enough to SRP the entire PL super fleet. If the isk wasn’t needed, becuase the ships weren’t lost, how can you maintain that the isk won the war?

    • jkr7117

      Because Goons knew they couldn’t defeat MBC if MBC had unlimited funds to make up for losses. PL and company wouldn’t have dreamed of attacking Imperium if they weren’t guaranteed to recoup losses. So Goons just retreated because they saw the writing on the wall. None of their in-game efforts could compete against casino money.

  • Seraph IX Basarab

    Salty losers being salty whining about casinos. Guess what? Nobody cares.

  • phuzz

    Question, do the casinos just make ISK, or do they also generate real currency (ie dollars or euros or yen etc.)?

  • Grrr Mitten

    Involvment of casinos in this war means EVE have become a “pay to win” game, mostly.

  • schwaboy

    I’d really love to see this conversation done over again, without anyone being allowed to use WWB, Goons, or The Imperium in the discussion at all. Debate the subject entirely on its own merits as Niden suggested, without the context of the war.

  • Bozo

    It’s a good question to raise.

    Sure, The Mittani’s only whining about casinos because his own failed. Sure, double standards is the norm in Imperium propaganda: casinos are evil because theirs failed, unassailable sources of ISK are evil but locking down hald of sovnull and making piles of ISK out of it is good gameplay, outnumbering your foes is ok when you’re the Imperium because you get to post “get friends, pubbies” in local but being outnumbered as the Imperium is grossly unfair blobbing and proof that CCP is bad and everybody should go play another game. And so on and so forth.

    But it’s still a good point.

    In real life, wealth is susceptible to force. States can close down casinos, or tax them, or nationalize the lotteries. Armies can invade the places where your piggybank is located. Having your wealth in a place an enemy state can’t reach isn’t the same as having it completely safe. There was, quite simply, very little an entity like the Imperium could do against something like IWI, short of trying to undermine it and controlling whatever would replace it. Which is probably what will happen.

    Imperium tears are delicious, but they have accidentally stumbled on a real problem. And we probably shouldn’t let “the players” solve it, because such solution may just create another, virtual, battlefield in a war between out of game casinos. Such a war would hugely favor older players and bittervets, as opposed to people just playing the game.

    • jkr7117

      Casinos may not create ISK out of thin air, but they do create an unfair playing field when the owner takes the profits from all Eve players and funnels them into select alliances on one side of a war and not the other. For me the take away is that no matter how much or how well you and your group play Eve “in-game”, those players with connections to the “out-of-game” casino owners will always win, or at least have a severe advantage.

      Mittani didn’t complain too much about it because he had designs for his own gambling site and would have done the same thing. LennyKravitz just happened to be the one with the successful site. Now, what if another gambling site funds another coalition in the future and another war? Is this what Eve is becoming? A game rigged at the top by a few mega-wealthy casino owners?

      This isn’t how I envisioned experiencing Eve’s meta-game content when I first signed up.

  • Eva

    Yeah eventually all the players know their responsibility and the effect of gambling they are doing on their as well as others life. So they do it as per their wish and for the enjoyment. I am also a online casino gamer and I love to play it on weekends. Thanks for raising this concern.