Crossing Zebras – Refineries Lowsec Special Episode


There has been heated debate surrounding the incoming refineries and their effects on lowsec, following Waffles FC Reza Najafi’s article “Lowsec is Dead” here on CZ.  In order to get to the bottom of the issues, I sat down with Reza, Snuffed Out FC Hy Wanto Destroyer, CSM representative Jin’taan and EN24 Editor-in-Chief, writer and podcast host Salivan Harddin for a focused debate.


Crossing Zebras – Refineries Lowsec Special Episode


Read Reza’s original article here
Read the refineries dev blog from CCP here


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Tags: Crossing Zebras, Hy Wanto Destroyer, Jin'taan, lowsec, niden, refineries, reza najafi, Salivan Harddin

About the author


12 year EVE veteran, Snuffed Out scumbag, writer, graphic artist, producer, Editor-in-Chief of Crossing Zebras and the second most influential player in EVE, according to EVE Onion.

  • Fat Elvis

    Jin’taan angry nerd of my heart

  • DustVet

    Look, I have to agree w/ what sounds like Jin’s overarching argument that the current low sec powers who are bitching about how removing passive POS income will impact Low Sec is that these people just hate change and don’t want to adapt. Change happens, bitches! Adapt or GTFO

    • Lowsec POWERHOUSE

      Its not that the income goes away. Its the POSes that have been great content creators since forever.

      • DustVet

        So it’s not going to be as easy to blow up the structure (POS vs Refinery) but you can still attack and kill miners, right? And I also agree w/ the host’s comments that this may be CCP’s intent to push more organized and stronger entities toward null and out of the shallow end of the pool

        • Niden

          Well, assuming that is what’s going on, not that I really think it is, but it is a possibility and it does go in line with CCP’s original design goals for lowsec. Assuming that, those of us who have been in lowsec for a long time and stay for the fights and the unique pvp-oriented culture don’t really want to leave because we have what we log in for in EVE and don’t want that ruined. It’s a very martial-heavy culture with a minimal amount of the other bullshit nullsec living involves, which is something a lot of us appreciate greatly and hold dear. Of course, you could argue that we are crybabies and should adapt, but why ruin something that has worked well for so many years and that people enjoy?

          • Der Bischof

            I personally believe that they must rework the lowsec as a whole anyway. I think you can count the big lowsec-players like snuff and shadow-cartel on one hand. Concerning THEIR income, they are smart enough to adapt, while staying in lowsec. These people did this for ages and they will continue doing so.
            But with the whole citadel deployment CCP showed very heavily that they dont care about lowsec very much at the moment. And that is ok for me, as long as they take care about the lowsec in the next step.
            We all know that CCP has a lot of ideas for the lowsec (f.i. to the FW) but did not have the resources, cause of the new structures. For instance I would not be surprised to see pos-guns removed or even citadels banned from lowsec (OR WHAT EVER) in the next 1-2 years … stuff that would have a very heavy influence explicitly to the lowsec.
            Also the long ongoing discussion about putting the warzones together would need some changes on the starmap.

            So jea …. I think the big pirate-alliances will adapt. Simply because they are survivalists for such a long time and because they have proofen their creativity. And the smaller groups dont care about moons anyway.

            The only thing that will really really hurt is that Lowsec-POSes are fight-generators.
            And that will be missed from everyone!

          • Der Bischof

            posguns …. Wanted to write gate-guns. ^^

          • Kane sintar

            Kane sintar

          • Kane sintar

            I’ve been in FW for 7 years and watched the Militias crumble as more and more left to join Snuff, Shadow cartel etc now low sec is fit to bursting with pirate groups who when boredom strikes Blops on to everything bigger than a frigate. I really hope the CCP plan is to push all the big pirate groups out to Null as then new players will get a chance to enjoy low sec.

      • Dirk MacGirk

        Agreed, I think the conflict created by “ownership” of the moon itself will suffer as a result of this change. Will they be worth fighting over as often, given the change in mechanic for deriving value once the dust settles, if groups don’t want to take ownership after a lengthy siege process? Perhaps resource denial will be enough of a reason to launch an attack, but even there the switch to citadel mechanics increases the commitment level. Not only is the attacker confronted with vulnerability windows (and the potential for timezone tanking), but even attacks intended to simply shut down the fracking process will require a two-stage siege process. This compares to the current scenario where the initial reinforcement would offline the moon harvester, thus drawing out defenders to rep the POS and get it back up and running.

        EVE changes and everyone will adapt one way or the other. But it’s not wrong to question whether these changes will result in more or less conflict, and at what scale. Will harassing miners be as interesting as sieging a structure where both parties are vying for claim to the underlying resource? Time will tell. Nullsec is probably a bit different in this regard than lowsec. I think the problem here is much more acute in lowsec than in null. In the end, “passive” income sucks, but it did (perhaps) create more of a reason to drive conflict than we’ll see in the future.

        • Niden

          Good response Dirk. While I see the scenario both Reza and Hy Wanto paint and do consider it a strong possibility that refineries will not provide conflict in lowsec the same way POS have, I really want to reserve judgement until these things roll out and we see what players actually do with them. The fact that TZ tanking is an issue cannot be argued however, that’s something I think CCP have to seriously look at. Lowsec is about fights, that’s why people come to lowsec and that’s why people stay in lowsec for years – specifically in the milieu that lowsec provides with no bubbles, no massive, grindy sov campaigns, but a high volume of fights set at a high skill level.

  • Caleb Ayrania

    Jin bringing teeth 🙂

    • Niden

      And we love him for it.

      • The Raggy

        No, we dont

  • Dirk MacGirk

    Paging Grath Telkin. Cleanup in lowsec aisle 8.

    Jin’taan taking on that Rixx Javix role early on. We know how this ends.

    • Niden

      Had to lol at this one.

    • The Raggy

      I don’t know I just have Jin fatigue from his campaigning prior to csm votes or what, but he came across as a disrespectful little bitch in this.

      As a null sec occupant I wouldn’t dare to presume to know better than the guys who are living and dying in low sec day in day out

  • n0th

    Goddamn, Jin’taan such an insufferable faggot. Give Jeffs CSM rounds a listen and take notes, how he listens to the most retarded bullshit from highsec pubbie candidates and stays calm and polite.

    I mean here everyone p. much agrees that passive income going away = good, content generation associated with said passive income and POS timers being replaced with more shitty citadel mechanics = bad.
    Its same for low and null, I’m actually talking to several russian NPC 0.0 groups and the sentiment is exactly the same there. Except in null mining is actually a thing, so there is some hope that moon mining fleets will lead to fights/escalations that are bigger than “tackle rorqual in some 100ab nano bullshit@ wait for escalation”. In lowsec a content driver for larger groups is going away with zero replacement.

    Those groups will probably adapt and sit in level 5 mission hubs while mass-scanning wormholes or something (PM already does this). Is it good for lowsec or game health in general? Nah.

  • Nathen

    Listening to this is making me laugh, its all big lowsec groups going “WAAAA MY ALLIANCE INCOME” and claiming its going to ‘kill content’ yet dont seem to grasp that they are the ones killing content, so many small to mid sized groups move to null because the lowsec groups are so insanely oppressive and prevent others from growing cus they dont want competition

    • Blazingbunny

      So they join the 5 gigantic blocs that rule all of null. Because the lowsec groups are oppressive. Are you serious?

      • lmaoatbutthurt

        The lowsec blobs could easily carve their own independent slice of 0.0. Apparently they have just grown too fat and lazy to get outside their comfort zone of passive no-effort income.

  • lmaoatbutthurt

    Killing the lowsec blobs would be a positive thing. Stop being a risk-averse fag with your slave pods and go to null if you want the mega alliance gameplay and your piles of supers/t3. Harden the fuck up.

    These changes have the potential to clear lowsec for active small-to-medium mixed indy/pvp alliances.