The Gorski CSM Report #2

Back again for another quick update. This is my second week on the CSM, and we have had some interesting things happen this week. The sov part of Aegis was deployed, and while I don’t take part in the whole sov-holding business, I can comment on what I feel about it from my small-gang perspective. In short, I think it is awesome. It is way easier to get a fight now in 0.0, and you can borderline force fights to happen. I know that there have been some complaints from the guys who are more invested into living in 0.0 space, and I am sure the other CSM members who are more experienced than me will give CCP feedback about that. CCP also decided to make all timers everywhere public and Lucia Denniard from Pizza was quick to put them up. This is another thing I can see people getting very upset about since it makes third partying extremely easy, but I wonder just how big of a deal it will be. Most people already know about timers, and I don’t really think that it is realistic to expect every single timer to get third partied all over the galaxy. Removing the API endpoint would also force CCP to get rid of a lot of information visible in the client. For me, this is one of those things that greatly benefits my style of play, especially since I live in Thera. Being able to see that I have a timer in one hour that is one jump from an exit WH means that I can almost certainly expect a fight there. During day 2 of Aegis sov, we got some extended downtime, and the servers crashed. The downtime lasted pretty much the entire day for me, which was spent moderating Reddit for shitposts on how EVE was kill and listening to the NCdot teamspeak that opened up. A lot of people showed up, including CCP Falcon, Foxfour and Leeloo, and it was a lot of fun. CCP Falcon hinted about a dev blog, and I am looking forward to seeing what went wrong. CCP did compensate by giving out 50k free skill points, so that’s nice. My suggestions this week have been pretty focused on the NPE. I posted something small about increasing the starting skill points for new characters to around one million. Ideally, I would want new players to start with these skills already trained: ss+(2015-07-16+at+03.07.07) I know some people are going to complain that giving new characters a skill at V is unnecessary and that it would be better to just remove the skill, but I am pretty sure that it is easier coding-wise to do it this way. I have also started a second account with a new alt and am running through the tutorial/opportunities stuff, seeing how it is to start the game today compared to when I began. Another small change to the skill tree I’d like to see is an alteration to Advanced Weapon Upgrades. I would rename it to Weapon Power Grid Upgrades, reduce it to a rank 2 skill and change the prerequisites to match that of Weapon Upgrades. Then, simply rename Weapon Upgrades to Weapon CPU Upgrades. Skill points would obviously be refunded for reducing the rank on AWU. In case you hadn’t noticed, the standings requirement for creating jump clones was removed in this patch as well. This has been confirmed as a bug by CCP, but I think that this is one of those instances where a bug turns out to be something better for the game. It actually removed the annoying requirements for creating the jump clones, already easily bypassed using corps like Estel Arador or going to 0.0 and docking in a freeport station. There is some concern, though, about removing another use for the rorqual, and I definitely agree that the ship is in dire need of a rework and a new role. I also talked a bit with Mizhir from Camel Empire about the epic arcs and how awesome they are despite being PvE. I remember very well the feeling of achievement after completing the Sisters of Eve arc as a new player and then with the Angel arc that gave me a great introduction to nullsec as a more experienced player. I would definitely want to know if CCP have some plans to create more of this content, and I will ask at the summit. I am going to spend the next week on vacation in Vienna and hopefully relax a bit from EVE. Unfortunately, I know that this will be a bit problematic, especially with this awesome Slack app for my phone.
Tags: csm, CSM 10, CSMX, gorski

About the author

Gorski Car

Gorski Car was a CSM 9 member whose theorycrafting and knowledge of mechanics has had a key role in helping CCP adjust how we play EVE. He is an avid small gang PvPer with a background in lowsec, but flies in all areas of space, depending on his fancy.

  • MukkBarovian

    We absolutely need to create a situation where the game is playable for a new player from day 1 minute 1. Then they need to be capable of competing with veterans in T1 frigates in a PVP setting very quickly.

    • Dan

      I have done “the math” on that one. I came up with that it requires about 5 M SP. Give them a frigate 5, one weapon system 5, weapon support skills at 4, and the ability to operate your ships at 4 and the most essential ones at 5 (mostly level 1s). You could probably strip it down to 3 M SP, but 5 would be better. And suddenly a noob would not look at the question why s/he ought to subscribe, let alone play, a game for three months in which s/he can’t do anything properly. And that argument that noobs wouldn’t know what to do anyway is silly. What they would have to come up with is perhaps some sort of proportional compensation for players who have been in the game for less than say 12 to 18 months. That said, I have heard this argument for veteran players so many times, and CCP keep looking into this for months and years. It is not that difficult to determine whether letting a player start out with versus without the ability to do stuff increases retention.

  • asspussy

    dorksi shit

  • MrFoundryguy .

    I think Weapon CPU Efficiency and Weapon Power Efficiency would be better names, but other than that, stellar report.

  • Dense

    I had the same idea about AWU and WU. What I would like them to be called is Electronic Weapon Upgrades(WU) and Electrical Weapon Upgrades(AWU). And AWU being independent from WU would be great – I had to train WU to 5 just because I wanted a bit more powergrid, which was sick.

  • Razordreamz

    I can’t say how much I am against this idea. I understand that this makes it easier for new players, but what about players that spent the time on multiple accounts training this? That SP should be refunded.

    • callduron

      Oh get over yourself. This change isn’t about you. It’s a chance to ease the feeling most new players have of being years behind and powerless.

      • Dermeisen

        Nicely put, get these guys competitive as soon as!

    • Bram Ridder

      Regarding older players, remember when Battlecruisers was just one skill instead of 4 it is now? When drone skills were split? You have already been refunded and more if you’ve been around that long.

    • Dirk MacGirk

      Eve is hard right? And we’re entitled to refunds because :reasons:.
      But Bram said it best, certain skills take longer to accumulate now than in the past. Veterans have benefited from those changes, if of course they were smart enough to take advantage of the opportunities at the time. But none of us should be worried is some newb(ro) has something useful to work with right from jump. If it weren’t for some players abusing it I’d say fuck it, let them start off with 10 million if that gets new players to stick around and help populate the game.

      • ViperRum

        “Eve is hard right? And we’re entitled to refunds because :reasons:”

        You do realize you just provided an argument against the article. “Eve is hard right? And we should make it easier for new players because :reasons:”

        • Dirk MacGirk

          The “Eve is hard” part was as equally sarcastic as the part about refunds.

          Too many fall back on the misconception that was is “hard” about Eve is the same as what makes Eve difficult. Just because something was a certain way in the past, for good reasons that are no longer valid or bad development or whatever, doesn’t mean it needs to stay just because its part of what makes the game “hard”. What truly makes the game hard is not skillpoint accrual speeds or noob starting skillpoints. What makes Eve truly challenging, hard even, is related to actual gameplay. The actions of each of us relative to the actions of other players. Veterans of any worth need not be afraid that the game becomes a little better for new players to come on board and find satisfaction a bit sooner than perhaps we did. But anyway… there will always be a certain element that wants it to be just as hard, for whatever reason, as it was when they undocked for the first time.

    • Saint Michael’s Soul

      So you’ve got all the toys already, but no-one else is allowed even a little toy? You’re everything that’s wrong with Eve.

  • wartzilla

    We all owe it to ourselves to remember how much those first six months sucked dick. Not being able to fly anything, specializing in one narrow area, and then having that one narrow area turn out to either be irrelevant or become so very quickly.

    Of course, I’d love for some skills to simply be removed so I can get a shitload of SP refunded, but that’s unrealistic.

  • Dirk MacGirk

    Nice writeup. Appreciate the effort.

  • Lich Reaper

    EVE used to start your new character with 900k SP, and the pre-trained skills were based on the ‘career’ you thought you wanted to pursue in character creation.

    Now it’s aids

  • Give them rank 4 CPU/PG management. With compact and other meta modules there is no real need for a new player to start with these skills at rank 5.
    This also means players can open up more fitting options with a short skill train giving a sense of accomplishement for training that skill to rank 5.

  • RJ

    About propulsion jamming…
    why bother starting them off with level 1 of that? They GIVE you the book for free in the career missions, IIRC, and not to mention, training the skill only takes around 17ish minutes, depending on your attribute map.
    Newbros should still be doing the tutorial type starter missions as well as the career missions. They don’t take an awful lot of time to get finished and they give you a crapload of stuff you can use. Ships, skillbooks, iskies, etc. all things that a newbro would need.
    Although I do think the idea of giving them some more starter skills pre-trained could be a good thing. but not PG/CPU man to 5. maybe 4.

    • bittervet

      I disagree with you about the PG/CPU man. Gorski is absolutely right about the fitting requirements being far too restrictive for newbie, and putting those two skills to V eases them into the game a lot better than not.

      Time spent training those two things to lvl 5 is time not spent training towards actually flying what they want to fly, and in the couple of weeks they get to try the game, to the initial month, if they end up waiting on training those skills just so they can fly a viable fitting on their choice of frig, then that’s a lost newbie, who then goes off to play something else that doesn’t cripple his viability in playing the game so early.

      They need to do the tutorials AND have the SP to get them started in the sandbox. You shouldn’t have to train for months just so you can not be utter shite.

      EVE needs to actually allow newbies a little more freedom to try out the game from the word go. 55k starting SP doesn’t do that at all. Or else the decreasing concurrent player count will be more than just less capital/ratting alts.

    • I disagree. Tutorial missions should not be a requirement to start playing the game. If a new player logs in we should be able to immediately get them in a T1 frigate and show them the really great parts of Eve. Right now if a newbro comes to even a really new-friendly area like FW it’s still “here’s a skill list, queue this up and when you log in tomorrow at this time you can join in.” That’s not a recipe for the continued success of Eve.

    • Ranamar

      As someone who has watched newbies go “can’t fit that… can’t fit that…” simply over CPU and PG upgrades, those skills are straight up cancer. Set them to V, grant it to anyone who hasn’t yet, and be done with it. (If you *really* want, refund everyone SP equivalent to what they had beyond L3, for all I care.)

      Beyond that, I’m coming around, now, to the idea that every skill granted by your faction’s tutorial, and even profession missions should probably be trained to L1 on a starting character. Having to take a 15 minute break before being able to use whatever item the tutorial wants you to learn about is idiotic. Besides, Gorski’s suggestions above are actually significantly more aggressive than that opinion I just provided.

  • Anyone miss the Learning Skills??? My god am I glad those were removed. Streamlining the skill system goes a long way to allow newer players to advance in meaningful steps and keep them motivated.

  • Kamar Raimo

    Vienna, hmm, i lived there for ten years of my life. Check out the butterfly house in the Burggarten and then hang out in that super classy cafe there or mingle with the stoner kids who frequent the park.

  • Easy Esky

    “Skill points would obviously be refunded for reducing the rank on AWU.”

    Gorski, I would point you to the precedent that no refunds were done when the ranks were lowered for scanning skills.

  • Freelancer117

    Wow, you impress me with your ideas and involvement in the CSM process.

    I agree that new players should get these skills, even the 2 at level 5, blame CCP for the skill requirements imho not the new player for having to wait for such basic amount of SP to play the game. And for bitter vets, in the past you had free sp from the start to when you show your bloodlines and occupation etc.

    couple of caveats:

    – to encourage players to keep training and give them a positive reinforcement you have to keep it under the 1 million sp mark.
    – only new accounts can have only one character with this update to ~ 1m sp.
    If a new player wants more alts on the same account, he has to level them up from the ground up and pay for it, like the rest of us did.
    – When a player creates multiple accounts for him/herself, then he/she gets the one update sp amount per account. It would be to difficult to distinguish otherwise.

    Fight the Good fight, precious !

    Regards, a Freelancer